GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Ken Tanaka · November 22nd, 2003, 11:56 AM

Hello Alan,
If this instructional video will requre clear stop-action frames then I would certainly shoot in frame mode and use a higher shutter speed, perhaps closer to 1/500 than 1/1000. If it's bright daylight chances are that your iris will still be closed enough to maintain deep DOF.

If possible experiment at the courts before the big day.

Tom Hardwick · November 22nd, 2003, 02:23 PM

If I believe your original post and you want the smoothest looking video, then shoot in TV (shutter priority) normal mode and lock that shutter speed down to 1/60th.

Shooting at speeds above about 1/200th sec can result in very stacatto looking footage as so little of the original motion has been captured. Look at it this way: if you shoot at 1/60th you capture everything that happens in front of your lens. Shoot at 1/500th sec and for most of the time the chips are simply waiting around, wondering what to do next.

Slo-mo take your footage and splits it into fields, the better programs interpolating between fields. Action footage shot at 1/500th sec can have an awful lot of information missing and this makes the interpolation difficult (and therefore inaccurate).

tom.

Alan Van Vliet · November 22nd, 2003, 04:42 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I am going to do some test shooting tomorrow.

This is an ongoing project, so I will be able to get some results and make adjustments. I do need to get the bulk of it shot before the weather goes south on me.

I appreciate the ideas.

Al

Alan Van Vliet · November 23rd, 2003, 01:55 PM

I shot both in frame mode and normal mode at 1/60 of a second and the quality is definitely better in both modes.

At this point it appears that the best quality is in the normal mode with these settings (i.e. the smoothest playback at regular speed). I have not looked at slow motion yet.

Ken, I understand your point when checking individuals frames, or in effect, stills. In that regard, they are much better at 1/500.

I may be imagining things, but the Auto focus also appears to be "hunting" less in the normal mode at 1/60.

One problem though, at 1/60 of a second I am slightly over-exposing the scene even with the neutral density filter on.
(Zebra patterns on the court lines, white shorts and shoes)

When I hand meter (with an equivalent ISO of 320) I need an aperature of f32, which of course is not available.

I assume I will need an additional external neutral density filter to reduce light ( I usually shoot in bright sunlight) so I can use these settings.

Does anyone know the value of the in camera neutral density filter (so I can adjust and handmeter accordingly)?

Thanks in advance,

Al

Tom Hardwick · November 24th, 2003, 02:36 AM

The ND absorbtion is easily checked - and I've done so on my TRV900 and VX. Simply shoot some footage in auto Alan. Use a tripod and something dull and static like a brick wall as a subject. Preferably in the TV mode with the shutter speed locked. Flick in the ND and shoot some more.

Do this on three different subjects and then rewind the tape, push 'display' and check out your aperture readings. Why shoot three different subjects? Simply because the 'display' only reads to the nearest half stop, and you'll be weeding out the tolerances.

The TRV900 often needs an extra ND8 (-three stops) and of course the VX2000 comes fitted at source with internal NDs.

tom.

Alan Van Vliet · November 24th, 2003, 04:18 AM

Tom,

I thought about testing it myself, but I didn't know how to use the display mode to re-read the settings.

Great idea.

Thanks for the input.

AL

Tom Voigt · November 24th, 2003, 08:35 PM

It's "Data Code" on the remote to display shutter, f-stop, and gain.

David Ho · January 16th, 2004, 03:59 PM

I've tried searching through some previous and past topics regarding this discussion, but have found some confusing points. From what I've read, it is very bad to try to slow-motion footage that was shot in the frame mode during post. because it'll create glitches or errors.... The general consensus is that slowmotion-ing something that's already been deinterlaced by the camcorder is bad or the frame/movie mode, specifically, in the GL2? Can anyone clear this confusion up? I don't know if its true...

Rosie Young · January 16th, 2004, 05:53 PM

well, I don't know what they all say, but I shoot in frame mode, shutter speed at 60, variable f-stops depending on lighting and I've taken various clips and and put them in slow motion in post, (adobe after effects_ and they've been perfect.

Rodger Marjama · January 18th, 2004, 03:54 PM

I don't have a GL?, but when using Twixtor to do slomo it always turns out better to deinterlace before applying Twixtor. So, I would suspect starting with footage shot in frame mode (non-interlaced) would only put you a step ahead with any software you choose to use.

-Rodger

Don Donatello · January 18th, 2004, 06:41 PM

i shot only frame mode / progressive and don't find slo mo a problem... i've seen others shoot interlace , progressive and their slo mo looks terrible ..IMO comes down to software ...
also depends on how slow you are trying to go ? 50%, 100% , 200< 300% ..above 400% is where you are going to find problems then special software might be needed DEPENDING on the "look" slo mo you are trying to get ...

John Lee · January 19th, 2004, 09:54 PM

It also may depend on how the slomo software renders the slomo sequence. I was wondering about this also.

I've been considering doing a comparison between using frame mode and video mode for slomo effects. What is the preferred program for doing this? I get the feeling that some programs may "cheat" and split and duplicate the interlaced fields into full frames, thereby halving their resolution.

I think I'm going to mess around with an exported sequence in after effects that is interlaced. I'd like to see how it looks at different speeds, particularly when I split and duplicate the fields.

I've used AVID motion effects in the past with frame mode video and if you try to slow the motion down more than about 75% it really becomes unbearably jerky, so I've been looking for a way past this problem.

Rodger Marjama · January 20th, 2004, 07:14 PM

For any who may not have been HERE, you can see some various footage shot with the DVX100. Little bit of a lot of things including, slowmo created from 30p, anamorphic adapter vs letterbox, and some other stuff.

This was all done a while back, but if you've not seen it, it might be worth the time.

BTW, alot of this is full res clips so if you have dial up, you may want to check filesizes before you d/l.

-Rodger

David Ho · January 21st, 2004, 05:14 AM

I am going to shoot some shorts on a tripod with frame mode on. Now, the rumors and maybe myths or facts I've heard is that OIS, although different from electronic IS, will still decrease the image quality or resolution by minimal (somewhere around 5-10%?) when turned on. Now, what should be good while using frame mode AND on a tripod? OIS on or off? Of course, I'll be doing extremely slow pans as the frame mode will make things seem jerky if the camera moves too fast.

Next question is what is the best shutter speed setting for frame mode? I, technically, still dont know what shutter speed is all about. All I know is that I have messed around with some settings and it seems that the different shutter speeds with the frame mode on can either reduce or cause even more jerkiness or the laggy effect.. I've tried 1/30 and 1/60 -- those seem to be good, I think.

Mike Ostracky · January 21st, 2004, 05:54 AM

OIS does NOT decrease resolution and that`s a fact :)

IF you are using a tripod turn off OIS to avoid any possible problems.

If you`re on NTSC try to use 1/60 shutter for most of the time (1/50 for PAL). This is not a rule, you may choose not to oblige, but it is an advice.

There is an interesting way of improvising steadycam with a tripod and OIS turned on :) I do it all the time... you grab your tripod some ten centimeters beneath the camera (tripods` legs should be retracted) and jump around like a crazy man thinking he has a steadycam ;) ...a happy, crazy man.

Cheers.

November 22nd, 2003, 11:56 AM	#226
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Hello Alan, If this instructional video will requre clear stop-action frames then I would certainly shoot in frame mode and use a higher shutter speed, perhaps closer to 1/500 than 1/1000. If it's bright daylight chances are that your iris will still be closed enough to maintain deep DOF. If possible experiment at the courts before the big day. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 24th, 2003, 04:18 AM	#231
Alan Van Vliet Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pinehurst, NC USA Posts: 69	Value of ND filter Tom, I thought about testing it myself, but I didn't know how to use the display mode to re-read the settings. Great idea. Thanks for the input. AL

January 16th, 2004, 03:59 PM	#233
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	Trying to slow-motion in GL2's frame mode? I've tried searching through some previous and past topics regarding this discussion, but have found some confusing points. From what I've read, it is very bad to try to slow-motion footage that was shot in the frame mode during post. because it'll create glitches or errors.... The general consensus is that slowmotion-ing something that's already been deinterlaced by the camcorder is bad or the frame/movie mode, specifically, in the GL2? Can anyone clear this confusion up? I don't know if its true... __________________ "Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film."

January 18th, 2004, 03:54 PM	#235
Rodger Marjama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 101	I don't have a GL?, but when using Twixtor to do slomo it always turns out better to deinterlace before applying Twixtor. So, I would suspect starting with footage shot in frame mode (non-interlaced) would only put you a step ahead with any software you choose to use. -Rodger __________________ Rodger Marjama www.speedwing.net

January 19th, 2004, 09:54 PM	#237
John Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 152	It also may depend on how the slomo software renders the slomo sequence. I was wondering about this also. I've been considering doing a comparison between using frame mode and video mode for slomo effects. What is the preferred program for doing this? I get the feeling that some programs may "cheat" and split and duplicate the interlaced fields into full frames, thereby halving their resolution. I think I'm going to mess around with an exported sequence in after effects that is interlaced. I'd like to see how it looks at different speeds, particularly when I split and duplicate the fields. I've used AVID motion effects in the past with frame mode video and if you try to slow the motion down more than about 75% it really becomes unbearably jerky, so I've been looking for a way past this problem. __________________ John Lee Levelse7en@gmail.com

November 22nd, 2003, 02:23 PM	#227
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	If I believe your original post and you want the smoothest looking video, then shoot in TV (shutter priority) normal mode and lock that shutter speed down to 1/60th. Shooting at speeds above about 1/200th sec can result in very stacatto looking footage as so little of the original motion has been captured. Look at it this way: if you shoot at 1/60th you capture everything that happens in front of your lens. Shoot at 1/500th sec and for most of the time the chips are simply waiting around, wondering what to do next. Slo-mo take your footage and splits it into fields, the better programs interpolating between fields. Action footage shot at 1/500th sec can have an awful lot of information missing and this makes the interpolation difficult (and therefore inaccurate). tom.

November 22nd, 2003, 04:42 PM	#228
Alan Van Vliet Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pinehurst, NC USA Posts: 69	Thanks for the input guys. I am going to do some test shooting tomorrow. This is an ongoing project, so I will be able to get some results and make adjustments. I do need to get the bulk of it shot before the weather goes south on me. I appreciate the ideas. Al

November 23rd, 2003, 01:55 PM	#229
Alan Van Vliet Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pinehurst, NC USA Posts: 69	I shot both in frame mode and normal mode at 1/60 of a second and the quality is definitely better in both modes. At this point it appears that the best quality is in the normal mode with these settings (i.e. the smoothest playback at regular speed). I have not looked at slow motion yet. Ken, I understand your point when checking individuals frames, or in effect, stills. In that regard, they are much better at 1/500. I may be imagining things, but the Auto focus also appears to be "hunting" less in the normal mode at 1/60. One problem though, at 1/60 of a second I am slightly over-exposing the scene even with the neutral density filter on. (Zebra patterns on the court lines, white shorts and shoes) When I hand meter (with an equivalent ISO of 320) I need an aperature of f32, which of course is not available. I assume I will need an additional external neutral density filter to reduce light ( I usually shoot in bright sunlight) so I can use these settings. Does anyone know the value of the in camera neutral density filter (so I can adjust and handmeter accordingly)? Thanks in advance, Al

November 24th, 2003, 02:36 AM	#230
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The ND absorbtion is easily checked - and I've done so on my TRV900 and VX. Simply shoot some footage in auto Alan. Use a tripod and something dull and static like a brick wall as a subject. Preferably in the TV mode with the shutter speed locked. Flick in the ND and shoot some more. Do this on three different subjects and then rewind the tape, push 'display' and check out your aperture readings. Why shoot three different subjects? Simply because the 'display' only reads to the nearest half stop, and you'll be weeding out the tolerances. The TRV900 often needs an extra ND8 (-three stops) and of course the VX2000 comes fitted at source with internal NDs. tom.

November 24th, 2003, 08:35 PM	#232
Tom Voigt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 92	It's "Data Code" on the remote to display shutter, f-stop, and gain.

January 16th, 2004, 05:53 PM	#234
Rosie Young New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: santa cruz, california Posts: 13	well, I don't know what they all say, but I shoot in frame mode, shutter speed at 60, variable f-stops depending on lighting and I've taken various clips and and put them in slow motion in post, (adobe after effects_ and they've been perfect.

January 18th, 2004, 06:41 PM	#236
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i shot only frame mode / progressive and don't find slo mo a problem... i've seen others shoot interlace , progressive and their slo mo looks terrible ..IMO comes down to software ... also depends on how slow you are trying to go ? 50%, 100% , 200< 300% ..above 400% is where you are going to find problems then special software might be needed DEPENDING on the "look" slo mo you are trying to get ...

January 20th, 2004, 07:14 PM	#238
Rodger Marjama Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 101	For any who may not have been HERE, you can see some various footage shot with the DVX100. Little bit of a lot of things including, slowmo created from 30p, anamorphic adapter vs letterbox, and some other stuff. This was all done a while back, but if you've not seen it, it might be worth the time. BTW, alot of this is full res clips so if you have dial up, you may want to check filesizes before you d/l. -Rodger __________________ Rodger Marjama www.speedwing.net

January 21st, 2004, 05:14 AM	#239
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	Tripod + Frame Mode/shutter speed + OIS? I am going to shoot some shorts on a tripod with frame mode on. Now, the rumors and maybe myths or facts I've heard is that OIS, although different from electronic IS, will still decrease the image quality or resolution by minimal (somewhere around 5-10%?) when turned on. Now, what should be good while using frame mode AND on a tripod? OIS on or off? Of course, I'll be doing extremely slow pans as the frame mode will make things seem jerky if the camera moves too fast. Next question is what is the best shutter speed setting for frame mode? I, technically, still dont know what shutter speed is all about. All I know is that I have messed around with some settings and it seems that the different shutter speeds with the frame mode on can either reduce or cause even more jerkiness or the laggy effect.. I've tried 1/30 and 1/60 -- those seem to be good, I think. __________________ "Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film."

January 21st, 2004, 05:54 AM	#240
Mike Ostracky Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	OIS does NOT decrease resolution and that`s a fact :) IF you are using a tripod turn off OIS to avoid any possible problems. If you`re on NTSC try to use 1/60 shutter for most of the time (1/50 for PAL). This is not a rule, you may choose not to oblige, but it is an advice. There is an interesting way of improvising steadycam with a tripod and OIS turned on :) I do it all the time... you grab your tripod some ten centimeters beneath the camera (tripods` legs should be retracted) and jump around like a crazy man thinking he has a steadycam ;) ...a happy, crazy man. Cheers.