GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

David Ho · November 12th, 2003, 01:34 PM

So, do you think if for any crazy fast fight-scenes (ie. Matrix-style kind), would the blurr screw up the effect majorily? I also plan to slow-mo the fight scenes. During a slow-mo edit on the computer, will the blurr show? Or is the strobe/blurr only shown on real-time frame movie mode? (cause I plan to frame movie mode + slow-motion on the computer)

David Ho · November 14th, 2003, 09:57 AM

So, I searched some more topics and threads about the frame mode and such. I have come to the conclusion that frame mode is bad for action sequences where the camera pans are fast and unsubtle. I am wondering does this only apply to the moving rate of the camera itself or the sequences produced when recording. What I mean is if I wanted to record someone fighting or such, would the type of alias/blurr (the effect that frame mode can produce, so I've heard) be produced on the camera view or is it only when the camera is moving fast?

I also want to know if slowmo-ing footage recorded in frame mode is a good idea? I want to add slow motion on some things in the footage through the computer editing.

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 14th, 2003, 11:17 AM

One thing I think you are forgetting is focus. When you shoot this you should do it manually (focus that is). I have had some trouble with the auto-focus taking a few frames to totally become focused. Make sure you practice this, because it can be a bear to overcome and get used to. To avoid blur, concerning exposure, I would recommend a higher shutter speed. This produces an effect similar to the "choppy, jilted" look of "Black Hawk Down," and is very effective. And, to protect your self, take several shots with a few "pre-arranged" settings (the ones you feel most comfortable with). Hope it goes well...

Bill Ravens · November 14th, 2003, 01:43 PM

I find it laughable that people bend over backwards to get the film look of 24 fps, then complain because the 30 fps of canon's frame mode produces "strobing"...these are mildly incongruous needs.

Federico Dib · November 14th, 2003, 07:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Ho : So, I searched some more topics and threads about the frame mode and such. I have come to the conclusion that frame mode is bad for action sequences where the camera pans are fast and unsubtle... -->>>

I´ll have to disagree here. Frame Mode is not BAD.. it´s DIFFERENT.
It just depend on what you are looking for, and how you shoot it.
Frame mode is not just for slow pans and steady shots of people sitting and talking.

For example I´ve found very appealing the Strobing effect on a frenetic action scene, and It suited it perfectly for the mood we were trying to achieve.
Something similiar to the opening secuence on this film (real film) Irreversible is probably one of the most shaky strobing visually disturbing effect I´ve seen, and fits like a glove to the mood of the scene. And it´s mostly achieved by camera movement.

So don´t discard Frame Mode from what you read... Use that as a guide... but better yet try to test and see it for yourself...

FRame Mode is just another option out there, and I think is better to have it than not. Of course you can allways turn it off.

David Ho · November 15th, 2003, 01:00 AM

If I am trying to mimic some Matrix fight sequences, do you think the frame mode is the way to go, or will it ultimately screw up the scenes? And can frame modes be slow-mo'ed/edited slow motion on the computer during post?

Mike Ostracky · November 15th, 2003, 07:53 AM

Oh, someone mentioned frame mode - this is where I come in ;)

The fight scenes would look nice, but you have to thorougly plan them - most of all lighting ! Don`t overexpose - don`t go above 1/50th shutter speed (1/60th if NTSC) - light well and you`ll have just what you are looking for.

I just love frame mode, though at the beggining I had problems with it to... Experiment with it before you start shooting ! You know what you want, no one can make a decission instead of you. You have the vision !

God speed !

Charles Papert · November 15th, 2003, 04:55 PM

Why not go above 1/50th or 1/60th?

David:

The strobing present in frame mode (as a result of the 30 fps characteristic) is less than would be the case in standard 24 fps film. If you like what you saw in the "The Matrix", then you should not find frame mode to be a problem. Fast pans are not the problem, just "inbetween" speed pans. What this means is something you'll best figure out by shooting some tests. If you want to achieve a filmlike quality, you'll surely want to do something other than "standard" mode (i.e. 60i), and whether you shoot in frame mode or use software to alter your apparent frame rate in post, the strobing effect will manifest itself. The nice thing about using frame mode is that since it is an "in-camera" effect, you can look at playback immediately or on a monitor live to determine if you have a strobing issue.

David Ho · November 20th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Here's what I've come up to after reading some more of my topic-related info:

1. The frame movie mode and widescreen mode TOGETHER will produce tremendous image and resolution loss, both in quality and size, so I guess its either best to (if unable to afford a true 16:9 anamorphic lens) film in regular frame mode, then cropping it OR film in 4:3, use Magic Bullet or something lik e that to de-interlace the footage/make it look more like film, then cropping it again.

2. I am not sure about this one, but If I plan to slow-motion some of shots, is itbest to shoot in regular normal mode rather than frame movie mode because from what I've read through the threads, it can cause some crazy image errors. (I am trying to shoot a short film that will feature fast fighting sequences and some slow motions in between them.)

3. I plan to shoot in frame movie mode the whole time, if possible. My question is that what options can you shoot in frame movie mode that can work? And what can't work or will produce terrible results? Can you shoot with the frame mode and the optical image stabilizer? (etc)

I just need some more opinions, comments, and suggestions on this if you guys have any.

Mike Ostracky · November 20th, 2003, 05:06 PM

The best possible option is to shoot with true 16:9 anamorphic lens (although GL2 (XM2)`s widescreen is pretty good to) and with frame mode on.

Slow motion can be accomplished by a multitude of ways - one really great is to shoot fields and out of 50 fields get 50 separate, deinterlaced images - resolutio loss is great, but so is the slo-mo. My favorite way of doing slo-mo is to shoot in frame mode and use software like RETIMER - it looks sweeeeeet ! Try it.

Shooting the whole movie in frame mode is a great idea. Everything works this way but try to be as professional as you can, DV can give incredible results IF you light properly (I can`t stress this enough) and shoot properly (use tripods, improvise a steadycam if you don`t have one etc.).

I hope this was of help.

And I almost forgot - optical image stabilizer DOES NOTHING to image quality ! So enjoy in it ;)

David Ho · November 21st, 2003, 04:15 PM

Hmm, okay.

Well then, can the frame movie mode be used with the other modes (easy recording, spotlight, etc) or the full manual modes where you can set anything you want, or is the frame mode's options are already pre-chosen? What I am saying is, can you use the frame movie mode while also manually controlling color or something like that.

Also, does the anamorphic widescreen 16:9 option on the GL2 only STRETCH the image when viewed on a regular 4:3 TV? Does that mean when viewed on normal tv, everything will looked stretched and tall. (Because I want to have some black bars around it like cropping or letterboxing, if thats what its called). Then I guess if I want the black bars, then its just to crop/letterbox it right?

Ken Tanaka · November 21st, 2003, 04:51 PM

Wow David. You are a veritable eternal fountain of questions! ;-) Not complaining, just observing here.

Look, short of just buying or renting the camera, why not just download the manual? The answers to many, if not most, of your questions are there.

Mike Ostracky · November 21st, 2003, 04:54 PM

When shooting in frame mode you can control everything, and that`s the beauty of film making - manual, the only way to go ;)

Anamorphic on GL2 (XM2) does widescreen "the right way" - it stretches it, it (luckily !) doesn`t letterbox the image - but still, the anamorphic lens is the best way to go.

On great majority of modern TV sets you have 16:9 button on remote to "unstretch" the picture - thus making it appear as it should, widescreen and without any resolution lost (which is noticable when letterboxing).

Hope that helps.

David Ho · November 21st, 2003, 08:27 PM

"Wow David. You are a veritable eternal fountain of questions! ;-) Not complaining, just observing here."

Hehe, thanks. I am just trying to do the ultimate research as possible, so when I get this camera, I will know that I haven't made a mistake. Afterall, I am spending $2k+ :-)

So, let me get this straight. CROPPING, or putting the black bars, is also called letterboxing right? If so, I want to make my movie have those black bars, whats the best approach of doing so? I want to "mimic" widescreen.... You know how if you buy Widescreen DVDs or just watch widescreen movies on a regular TV, there are black bars trying to maintain the same ratio... that's what I kind of what. I am trying to mimic a widescreen black-bar look, but also trying to maintain a good widescreen ratio, instead of normal 4:3... Know what I mean? Hope that this make senses.

Alan Van Vliet · November 22nd, 2003, 04:16 AM

Any suggestions for shooting fairly high speed tennis instructional videos?

I have been experimenting in frame mode, and had pretty good results at 1/60. Should I be shooting in normal mode?

I need to get the best quality (smoothest) shots I can as some will be converted to slow motion.

As a still photographer, my inclinication is to shoot with fairly high shutter speeds 1/500 to 1/1000 but depth of field and focusing is an issue as well.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, AL

November 14th, 2003, 11:17 AM	#213
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	One thing I think you are forgetting is focus. When you shoot this you should do it manually (focus that is). I have had some trouble with the auto-focus taking a few frames to totally become focused. Make sure you practice this, because it can be a bear to overcome and get used to. To avoid blur, concerning exposure, I would recommend a higher shutter speed. This produces an effect similar to the "choppy, jilted" look of "Black Hawk Down," and is very effective. And, to protect your self, take several shots with a few "pre-arranged" settings (the ones you feel most comfortable with). Hope it goes well... __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

November 14th, 2003, 07:01 PM	#215
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	<<<-- Originally posted by David Ho : So, I searched some more topics and threads about the frame mode and such. I have come to the conclusion that frame mode is bad for action sequences where the camera pans are fast and unsubtle... -->>> I´ll have to disagree here. Frame Mode is not BAD.. it´s DIFFERENT. It just depend on what you are looking for, and how you shoot it. Frame mode is not just for slow pans and steady shots of people sitting and talking. For example I´ve found very appealing the Strobing effect on a frenetic action scene, and It suited it perfectly for the mood we were trying to achieve. Something similiar to the opening secuence on this film (real film) Irreversible is probably one of the most shaky strobing visually disturbing effect I´ve seen, and fits like a glove to the mood of the scene. And it´s mostly achieved by camera movement. So don´t discard Frame Mode from what you read... Use that as a guide... but better yet try to test and see it for yourself... FRame Mode is just another option out there, and I think is better to have it than not. Of course you can allways turn it off. __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

November 15th, 2003, 07:53 AM	#217
Mike Ostracky Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	My area :) Oh, someone mentioned frame mode - this is where I come in ;) The fight scenes would look nice, but you have to thorougly plan them - most of all lighting ! Don`t overexpose - don`t go above 1/50th shutter speed (1/60th if NTSC) - light well and you`ll have just what you are looking for. I just love frame mode, though at the beggining I had problems with it to... Experiment with it before you start shooting ! You know what you want, no one can make a decission instead of you. You have the vision ! God speed !

November 15th, 2003, 04:55 PM	#218
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Why not go above 1/50th or 1/60th? David: The strobing present in frame mode (as a result of the 30 fps characteristic) is less than would be the case in standard 24 fps film. If you like what you saw in the "The Matrix", then you should not find frame mode to be a problem. Fast pans are not the problem, just "inbetween" speed pans. What this means is something you'll best figure out by shooting some tests. If you want to achieve a filmlike quality, you'll surely want to do something other than "standard" mode (i.e. 60i), and whether you shoot in frame mode or use software to alter your apparent frame rate in post, the strobing effect will manifest itself. The nice thing about using frame mode is that since it is an "in-camera" effect, you can look at playback immediately or on a monitor live to determine if you have a strobing issue. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

November 20th, 2003, 05:06 PM	#220
Mike Ostracky Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	Frame mode - great :) The best possible option is to shoot with true 16:9 anamorphic lens (although GL2 (XM2)`s widescreen is pretty good to) and with frame mode on. Slow motion can be accomplished by a multitude of ways - one really great is to shoot fields and out of 50 fields get 50 separate, deinterlaced images - resolutio loss is great, but so is the slo-mo. My favorite way of doing slo-mo is to shoot in frame mode and use software like RETIMER - it looks sweeeeeet ! Try it. Shooting the whole movie in frame mode is a great idea. Everything works this way but try to be as professional as you can, DV can give incredible results IF you light properly (I can`t stress this enough) and shoot properly (use tripods, improvise a steadycam if you don`t have one etc.). I hope this was of help. And I almost forgot - optical image stabilizer DOES NOTHING to image quality ! So enjoy in it ;)

November 12th, 2003, 01:34 PM	#211
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	So, do you think if for any crazy fast fight-scenes (ie. Matrix-style kind), would the blurr screw up the effect majorily? I also plan to slow-mo the fight scenes. During a slow-mo edit on the computer, will the blurr show? Or is the strobe/blurr only shown on real-time frame movie mode? (cause I plan to frame movie mode + slow-motion on the computer)

November 14th, 2003, 09:57 AM	#212
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	So, I searched some more topics and threads about the frame mode and such. I have come to the conclusion that frame mode is bad for action sequences where the camera pans are fast and unsubtle. I am wondering does this only apply to the moving rate of the camera itself or the sequences produced when recording. What I mean is if I wanted to record someone fighting or such, would the type of alias/blurr (the effect that frame mode can produce, so I've heard) be produced on the camera view or is it only when the camera is moving fast? I also want to know if slowmo-ing footage recorded in frame mode is a good idea? I want to add slow motion on some things in the footage through the computer editing.

November 14th, 2003, 01:43 PM	#214
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I find it laughable that people bend over backwards to get the film look of 24 fps, then complain because the 30 fps of canon's frame mode produces "strobing"...these are mildly incongruous needs.

November 15th, 2003, 01:00 AM	#216
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	If I am trying to mimic some Matrix fight sequences, do you think the frame mode is the way to go, or will it ultimately screw up the scenes? And can frame modes be slow-mo'ed/edited slow motion on the computer during post?

November 20th, 2003, 01:02 PM	#219
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	Here's what I've come up to after reading some more of my topic-related info: 1. The frame movie mode and widescreen mode TOGETHER will produce tremendous image and resolution loss, both in quality and size, so I guess its either best to (if unable to afford a true 16:9 anamorphic lens) film in regular frame mode, then cropping it OR film in 4:3, use Magic Bullet or something lik e that to de-interlace the footage/make it look more like film, then cropping it again. 2. I am not sure about this one, but If I plan to slow-motion some of shots, is itbest to shoot in regular normal mode rather than frame movie mode because from what I've read through the threads, it can cause some crazy image errors. (I am trying to shoot a short film that will feature fast fighting sequences and some slow motions in between them.) 3. I plan to shoot in frame movie mode the whole time, if possible. My question is that what options can you shoot in frame movie mode that can work? And what can't work or will produce terrible results? Can you shoot with the frame mode and the optical image stabilizer? (etc) I just need some more opinions, comments, and suggestions on this if you guys have any.

November 21st, 2003, 04:15 PM	#221
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	Hmm, okay. Well then, can the frame movie mode be used with the other modes (easy recording, spotlight, etc) or the full manual modes where you can set anything you want, or is the frame mode's options are already pre-chosen? What I am saying is, can you use the frame movie mode while also manually controlling color or something like that. Also, does the anamorphic widescreen 16:9 option on the GL2 only STRETCH the image when viewed on a regular 4:3 TV? Does that mean when viewed on normal tv, everything will looked stretched and tall. (Because I want to have some black bars around it like cropping or letterboxing, if thats what its called). Then I guess if I want the black bars, then its just to crop/letterbox it right?

November 21st, 2003, 04:51 PM	#222
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Wow David. You are a veritable eternal fountain of questions! ;-) Not complaining, just observing here. Look, short of just buying or renting the camera, why not just download the manual? The answers to many, if not most, of your questions are there. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 21st, 2003, 04:54 PM	#223
Mike Ostracky Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	When shooting in frame mode you can control everything, and that`s the beauty of film making - manual, the only way to go ;) Anamorphic on GL2 (XM2) does widescreen "the right way" - it stretches it, it (luckily !) doesn`t letterbox the image - but still, the anamorphic lens is the best way to go. On great majority of modern TV sets you have 16:9 button on remote to "unstretch" the picture - thus making it appear as it should, widescreen and without any resolution lost (which is noticable when letterboxing). Hope that helps.

November 21st, 2003, 08:27 PM	#224
David Ho Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 354	"Wow David. You are a veritable eternal fountain of questions! ;-) Not complaining, just observing here." Hehe, thanks. I am just trying to do the ultimate research as possible, so when I get this camera, I will know that I haven't made a mistake. Afterall, I am spending $2k+ :-) So, let me get this straight. CROPPING, or putting the black bars, is also called letterboxing right? If so, I want to make my movie have those black bars, whats the best approach of doing so? I want to "mimic" widescreen.... You know how if you buy Widescreen DVDs or just watch widescreen movies on a regular TV, there are black bars trying to maintain the same ratio... that's what I kind of what. I am trying to mimic a widescreen black-bar look, but also trying to maintain a good widescreen ratio, instead of normal 4:3... Know what I mean? Hope that this make senses.

November 22nd, 2003, 04:16 AM	#225
Alan Van Vliet Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pinehurst, NC USA Posts: 69	Frame mode, shutter speeds Any suggestions for shooting fairly high speed tennis instructional videos? I have been experimenting in frame mode, and had pretty good results at 1/60. Should I be shooting in normal mode? I need to get the best quality (smoothest) shots I can as some will be converted to slow motion. As a still photographer, my inclinication is to shoot with fairly high shutter speeds 1/500 to 1/1000 but depth of field and focusing is an issue as well. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, AL