16:9 mode on GL2

Crystal Mason · September 18th, 2003, 06:13 AM

I´m making a film that I hope will be shown in film festivals as well as on television. My question is this is, it better to film in the 16:9 format or the 4:3 format. I had read somewhere that this could be dealt with in the editing process but I don´t know. Maybe some one can help me with this. This is my first film with a DV camera. I hope it is clear what I´m talking about.

Adrian Douglas · September 18th, 2003, 06:23 AM

Yes Crystal it's quite clear. Creating 16:9 in post is usually done by adding black bars as a matte on the top and bottom of the image. This creates the effect of 16:9 on a 4:3 TV without any loss of resolution. The way it's done in camera varies, some cameras crop others squeeze and stretch. The Canons use the squeeze/stretch method which results in a slight loss of resolution. If you do a search on '16:9' or 'widescreen' you will find quite a number of threads that discuss this topic.

Mark Jefferson · September 18th, 2003, 07:49 AM

Hi Crystal,

16x9 in post is a double edged sword. By placing a black matte on top an bottom of your footage, you are cutting 25% of resolution. However, this gives you a lot of flexability as far as framing and composition goes.

Sometimes cameras have an option for 16x9 format, but you need to investigate what it is actually offering. Some cameras (like Canon's) digitally stretch the image and save to tape. Some cameras just put the black bars on top and bottom and leave it at that. Some cameras, however, actually have more pixals on the ccd that can capture true 16x9. Your best bet for 16x9 is an anamorphic adapter that mounts on your camera, but since these cost $800+ dollars, this is not a feasable solution for most people.

I have two Canon's, a GL2 (primary camera) and a ZR20 (secondary camera), both offer the digital stretching option. When I need the 16x9 format, I will use this option. You might say "Whats the point? You still lose 25% of your image." Well, that's kind of true, but let me explain: If you just crop your video in post, you truely loose 25% of the image. If you shoot in anamorphic most where the image is digitally streched, the image is saved to tape in that format, which leaves more video information available on the tape. This results in a crisper image because those bits that would've been used for the whole image are now used for the stretched video.

Adam Wilt gives a really good treatment on the 16x9 vs 4x3 controversy. You should read his article at:

http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-etc.html#widescreen

to get a better feel for this subject. This will allow you to make your own informed discision on this topic. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Mark

Joe Sacher · September 18th, 2003, 12:28 PM

I also prefer the in-camera 16:9 with the GL2. The interpolations done in camera are a little better quality than I have been able to accomplish when cropping and resampling vertically back out to 16:9 in post. That isn't to say that I haven't had that one take which would have been perfect if the camera operator would have framed it a little higher or lower. 4:3 cropped in post would have fixed those issues.

K. Forman · September 18th, 2003, 01:55 PM

I asked to be pointed towards the threads that covered this, as I was having trouble finding them on my own. I guess I'll jump on this one!

I'm experimenting with the 16:9 on my GL1. My desired result, is true widescreen, not a black bars cheat. Using Premiere offers 16:9 as an option. In the program, it looks right. However, when it goes to my external monitor or tape, it is squished. Where is my problem coming from?

Derrick Begin · September 18th, 2003, 02:29 PM

Keith,

Does your external monitor have a 16:9 switch? If its a 4:3 then it will be squished.

I master off my 16:9 footage (XL1S) and make separate copies for 4:3 (resized 75% and letterboxed at 1:85) Television and 16:9.

Cheers!

K. Forman · September 18th, 2003, 03:57 PM

The thing is, it shows 16:9 movies in letterbox, but not mine. Mine are squished, so I must not be doing something right?

Andres Lucero · September 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM

Keith, if you're watching on a 4:3 TV set, you'll have to create a separate 4:3 video with letterboxes. If you have an HDTV (16:9) set, you can see the 16:9 video full-screen by choosing the widescreen setting.

DVDs that are "anamorphic 16x9" or "enhanced for widescreen TVs" send a signal to your DVD player and/or TV that will display the movie in whichever aspect ratio your TV supports. You might be able to encode this kind of signal into your own DVDs, although I don't know how...

K. Forman · September 18th, 2003, 06:47 PM

Any idea what that encoding is called? That is probably the critter I'm looking for. Is it even possible in Premiere, or is it a "specialty" thing?

I really want 16:9, because I may screen this at a local theater. Somehow, I don't think letterbox would look right on a theater screen.

Lloyd Roseblade · September 19th, 2003, 04:46 AM

I'm sure the signal is called WSS and is recorded by the camcorder to the tape itself. The GL2 supports this and when you select to record in 16:9 I believe it supplies the WSS signal as well. I'm not sure so don't rely on this bit, but this information may be stored in the 8(?) pixel area that non-optical image stabilisers use for the DIS information.

Lloyd Roseblade · September 19th, 2003, 05:01 AM

Also, aren't theatre screens 2.35:1?

K. Forman · September 19th, 2003, 06:05 AM

I'm not sure exactly what the size/ratio is, but I am sure that these screens aren't full width. This is a twin cinema, and the screens were cut down a bit. But that was a very good point.

Thomas Fraser · November 29th, 2003, 01:30 PM

I was told by my camera salesman that if I set my GL2 to 16:9 and record , it will play back on my regular television in wide screen format with black bars top and bottom.
This does not happen ??
Is my salesman wrong or am I doing something wrong??
Please help
.

Andres Lucero · November 29th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Your salesman was wrong; 16:9 footage appears squished on a 4:3 TV set.

Chris Hurd · December 1st, 2003, 10:08 PM

However, it's very easy to make your own letterbox 16x9 with the black bars, right in the camera, so that it plays back just like what you're looking for. This trick isn't in the manual, but it's described in detail on our GL2 Son of Watchdog site. Maybe the salesman saw our site and that's what he was thinking about. Hope this helps,

September 18th, 2003, 06:13 AM	#46
Crystal Mason Tourist Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1	Shooting in 16:9 or 4:3 I´m making a film that I hope will be shown in film festivals as well as on television. My question is this is, it better to film in the 16:9 format or the 4:3 format. I had read somewhere that this could be dealt with in the editing process but I don´t know. Maybe some one can help me with this. This is my first film with a DV camera. I hope it is clear what I´m talking about.

September 18th, 2003, 06:23 AM	#47
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	Yes Crystal it's quite clear. Creating 16:9 in post is usually done by adding black bars as a matte on the top and bottom of the image. This creates the effect of 16:9 on a 4:3 TV without any loss of resolution. The way it's done in camera varies, some cameras crop others squeeze and stretch. The Canons use the squeeze/stretch method which results in a slight loss of resolution. If you do a search on '16:9' or 'widescreen' you will find quite a number of threads that discuss this topic. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

September 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM	#53
Andres Lucero Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 75	Keith, if you're watching on a 4:3 TV set, you'll have to create a separate 4:3 video with letterboxes. If you have an HDTV (16:9) set, you can see the 16:9 video full-screen by choosing the widescreen setting. DVDs that are "anamorphic 16x9" or "enhanced for widescreen TVs" send a signal to your DVD player and/or TV that will display the movie in whichever aspect ratio your TV supports. You might be able to encode this kind of signal into your own DVDs, although I don't know how... __________________ "Oy... Aim it downhill."

November 29th, 2003, 01:30 PM	#58
Thomas Fraser Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada Posts: 70	16:9 GL2 question I was told by my camera salesman that if I set my GL2 to 16:9 and record , it will play back on my regular television in wide screen format with black bars top and bottom. This does not happen ?? Is my salesman wrong or am I doing something wrong?? Please help . __________________ Thanks for your help everyone.

November 29th, 2003, 01:37 PM	#59
Andres Lucero Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 75	Your salesman was wrong; 16:9 footage appears squished on a 4:3 TV set. __________________ "Oy... Aim it downhill."

September 18th, 2003, 07:49 AM	#48
Mark Jefferson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Collinsville, Illinois Posts: 86	Hi Crystal, 16x9 in post is a double edged sword. By placing a black matte on top an bottom of your footage, you are cutting 25% of resolution. However, this gives you a lot of flexability as far as framing and composition goes. Sometimes cameras have an option for 16x9 format, but you need to investigate what it is actually offering. Some cameras (like Canon's) digitally stretch the image and save to tape. Some cameras just put the black bars on top and bottom and leave it at that. Some cameras, however, actually have more pixals on the ccd that can capture true 16x9. Your best bet for 16x9 is an anamorphic adapter that mounts on your camera, but since these cost $800+ dollars, this is not a feasable solution for most people. I have two Canon's, a GL2 (primary camera) and a ZR20 (secondary camera), both offer the digital stretching option. When I need the 16x9 format, I will use this option. You might say "Whats the point? You still lose 25% of your image." Well, that's kind of true, but let me explain: If you just crop your video in post, you truely loose 25% of the image. If you shoot in anamorphic most where the image is digitally streched, the image is saved to tape in that format, which leaves more video information available on the tape. This results in a crisper image because those bits that would've been used for the whole image are now used for the stretched video. Adam Wilt gives a really good treatment on the 16x9 vs 4x3 controversy. You should read his article at: http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-etc.html#widescreen to get a better feel for this subject. This will allow you to make your own informed discision on this topic. Hope this helps. Cheers, Mark

September 18th, 2003, 12:28 PM	#49
Joe Sacher Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 177	I also prefer the in-camera 16:9 with the GL2. The interpolations done in camera are a little better quality than I have been able to accomplish when cropping and resampling vertically back out to 16:9 in post. That isn't to say that I haven't had that one take which would have been perfect if the camera operator would have framed it a little higher or lower. 4:3 cropped in post would have fixed those issues.

September 18th, 2003, 01:55 PM	#50
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I asked to be pointed towards the threads that covered this, as I was having trouble finding them on my own. I guess I'll jump on this one! I'm experimenting with the 16:9 on my GL1. My desired result, is true widescreen, not a black bars cheat. Using Premiere offers 16:9 as an option. In the program, it looks right. However, when it goes to my external monitor or tape, it is squished. Where is my problem coming from?

September 18th, 2003, 02:29 PM	#51
Derrick Begin Major Player Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York Posts: 329	Keith, Does your external monitor have a 16:9 switch? If its a 4:3 then it will be squished. I master off my 16:9 footage (XL1S) and make separate copies for 4:3 (resized 75% and letterboxed at 1:85) Television and 16:9. Cheers!

September 18th, 2003, 03:57 PM	#52
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	The thing is, it shows 16:9 movies in letterbox, but not mine. Mine are squished, so I must not be doing something right?

September 18th, 2003, 06:47 PM	#54
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Any idea what that encoding is called? That is probably the critter I'm looking for. Is it even possible in Premiere, or is it a "specialty" thing? I really want 16:9, because I may screen this at a local theater. Somehow, I don't think letterbox would look right on a theater screen.

September 19th, 2003, 04:46 AM	#55
Lloyd Roseblade Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Thatcham, UK Posts: 34	I'm sure the signal is called WSS and is recorded by the camcorder to the tape itself. The GL2 supports this and when you select to record in 16:9 I believe it supplies the WSS signal as well. I'm not sure so don't rely on this bit, but this information may be stored in the 8(?) pixel area that non-optical image stabilisers use for the DIS information.

September 19th, 2003, 05:01 AM	#56
Lloyd Roseblade Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Thatcham, UK Posts: 34	Also, aren't theatre screens 2.35:1?

September 19th, 2003, 06:05 AM	#57
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I'm not sure exactly what the size/ratio is, but I am sure that these screens aren't full width. This is a twin cinema, and the screens were cut down a bit. But that was a very good point.

December 1st, 2003, 10:08 PM	#60
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	However, it's very easy to make your own letterbox 16x9 with the black bars, right in the camera, so that it plays back just like what you're looking for. This trick isn't in the manual, but it's described in detail on our GL2 Son of Watchdog site. Maybe the salesman saw our site and that's what he was thinking about. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!