Shooting a low light concert

Don Palomaki · November 13th, 2003, 05:57 AM

Gain amplifies the signal, all signal including noise, read from the CCD before it reaches the A/D converters. In low light, the desired signal caused by light is very close to the level of noise just naturally generated in the CCD.

It also amplifies the differences in dark current of the individual pixels in the CCD, and that appears as a fixed grain pattern in the image.

Gain with a camcorder is a bit like like push processing of film.

You can use gain in the camcorder, or use gain in post production, to brighten an image. Using camcorder gain may be more effective preserving shadow detail

Keep in mind that in many cases a noisy and grainy image is better than no image.

As to recycling tape. Occasionally people have reported problems with incomplete erasure. and bits of the earlier shoot may show through. For important work safer to use fresh tape.

You pays your money and takes your chances.

Ken Tanaka · November 13th, 2003, 12:00 PM

Graham,
My remark about "...break the dial" was strictly metaphorical. Meaning: generally forget about program modes and take direct control of the camera.

Ken Tanaka · November 13th, 2003, 12:37 PM

As always, Don is completely correct by remarking, "...in many cases a noisy and grainy image is better than no image."

A key consideration with respect to the acceptability of grain, however, will be the target viewing venue of the footage. If the target will be a compressed medium, such as Web or DVD, grainy footage may be a nightmare. Grain can wreak havoc with heavy compression on two fronts. First, because it adds an enormous amount of random detail, it can really bloat a compressed file and take quite a while to compress. Second, during viewing (decompression) the grain tends to become magnified and more pronounced. There are ways to soften and smooth-out some grain during compression to mitigate these consequences. But it would take a real pro to make such adjustments, particularly if your footage is cut among other smooth footage.

Graham Bernard · November 13th, 2003, 01:38 PM

Thanks Ken. I've never come across this term before.

Peter Dorr · December 3rd, 2003, 05:34 PM

Hi,
I was just wondering if the concert had already taken place and how the results were with hat settings?
I tried to do the same thing on my very first night out with the camera (ok, I had put everything on automatic, it was only a test) but the results were far from what I had hoped for.

Michael Connor · December 30th, 2003, 09:22 PM

Yea me too wondering how concert turned out.
Ive only done one concert that was actually in a cinema. I used two borrowed cameras and it turned into a blundering nightmare! Firstly the 'spare' camera was set on a tripod at wide angle. I selected low light mode, and autofocus. This was great with the lighting before the show. But when the show started and there were human faces on stage, they were all over exposed, white blobs, and i should have used 'spotlite mode'.
Incidentally this worked a treat on the sony vdx2000 i had borrowed for use as the main camera. Only wish i had white ballanced it before hand, tho was ok. Audio. I had planned to use a mini disk as a sound source, i checked the levels when the music was on before the show, and they were fine. However when the show started all of the volumes were turned up louder, and i ended up having to use the audio from the camera!
With hindsight id say, use auto focus, and auto levels for your audio, if your results are important, unless you are able to monitor it, are comfortable with it, or have someone else to help out. I like the idea of having a spare camera left alone on auto, so if you mess up the clever shots you have something to fall back on. Shame id set up the spare camera wrong!

Federico Dib · December 31st, 2003, 11:43 AM

You can see a sample of XM2 on night outdoors concert and can compare with two other cameras:
(the compression isn´t very good)

See it on browser http://www.def3ct.com/federico/videos/haro.htm

Download it http://www.def3ct.com/federico/videos/hdsl.wmv

All the shots that look from down below were done with my XM2.
Exposure and Aperture manual, auto white balance.

All the On-stage shot were done with a really smal miniDv from panasonic... (don´t know the model) fully auto...

All the Far-Wide Shots... were done with a Panasonic DVX-100, I don´t know the settings.

Since the light changed so much and so often.. I underexposed the XM2 a bit to avoid a lot of "burned" whites, for some reason that day I thouhgt I´d preffer to loose the shadow details than the highlight details.. It was impossible to have both.. and the plans were to correct on post... but...
I didn´t edit the footage... and I´m 120% sure that no color correction or deinterlace or anything was donde to the image, so that´s pretty much how it looks raw (and compressed).

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2003, 11:54 AM

Excellent comparison test. Thanks for taking the time to post.

Grazie

Federico Dib · December 31st, 2003, 12:16 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Bernard : Excellent comparison test. Thanks for taking the time to post.

Grazie -->>>
No problem at all.. For me the problem to post is not a matter of time.. but a matter of space... WEBSPACE...

I´d love to upload a whole bunch of shooting I´ve done with the XM2... and have it discussed, but at this moment I can´t afford more webspace.

But in 2004 I hope stuff comes better for me (and for all of you too) so we can do a whole lot of posting...

Christopher C. Murphy · December 31st, 2003, 12:20 PM

I wanna know who this well known artist is you shot???

How did the shoot go by the way?

Murph

Federico Dib · December 31st, 2003, 12:41 PM

That´s a band called H from La Rioja here in Spain... They are a new band so at this time they are nobodys struggling up... (like me).
There were 5 bands that night.. Including the BIG one.. It´s called Macaco.. but I didn´t want to post a part of them because, they, and their agent were a little "Stars" that night, so I don´t want any problems with Labels... Besides I like H music better...

The shooting was very good... it was the first time I tested my XM2 in live event... And it performed like I expected (love my Generic Brand big battery, It lasted more than 7 hours). The low light performance was not as bad as I thought... It is actually pretty good. And besides a little weird issue with the grip zoom (there´s a thread about it here)..overall I´d say it was an A day.

Jeff Patnaude · January 6th, 2004, 09:08 AM

My experience in doing camera work for concerts is mixed. Some groups will have a "stage wash" of white light which helps getting a good video image. Other groups have light directors who are more theatrical and use large color washes and dramatic lighting cues. Its hard to get good images with a smaller chip camera especially, when there's low light, and its all red as well.

One of the other arguments to using manual aperture is that light levels will jump, and if the camera is in auto iris, you'll get blooming or hot spots and the iris will adjust a lot.

Talk to the lighting guy before hand and find out what kind of light show they have. If you can. Can you get into he space ahead of time? Do you have more han one camera?

good luck!

Jeff Patnaude

November 13th, 2003, 05:57 AM	#16
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	Gain amplifies the signal, all signal including noise, read from the CCD before it reaches the A/D converters. In low light, the desired signal caused by light is very close to the level of noise just naturally generated in the CCD. It also amplifies the differences in dark current of the individual pixels in the CCD, and that appears as a fixed grain pattern in the image. Gain with a camcorder is a bit like like push processing of film. You can use gain in the camcorder, or use gain in post production, to brighten an image. Using camcorder gain may be more effective preserving shadow detail Keep in mind that in many cases a noisy and grainy image is better than no image. As to recycling tape. Occasionally people have reported problems with incomplete erasure. and bits of the earlier shoot may show through. For important work safer to use fresh tape. You pays your money and takes your chances. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

November 13th, 2003, 12:00 PM	#17
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Graham, My remark about "...break the dial" was strictly metaphorical. Meaning: generally forget about program modes and take direct control of the camera. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

November 13th, 2003, 12:37 PM	#18
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	As always, Don is completely correct by remarking, "...in many cases a noisy and grainy image is better than no image." A key consideration with respect to the acceptability of grain, however, will be the target viewing venue of the footage. If the target will be a compressed medium, such as Web or DVD, grainy footage may be a nightmare. Grain can wreak havoc with heavy compression on two fronts. First, because it adds an enormous amount of random detail, it can really bloat a compressed file and take quite a while to compress. Second, during viewing (decompression) the grain tends to become magnified and more pronounced. There are ways to soften and smooth-out some grain during compression to mitigate these consequences. But it would take a real pro to make such adjustments, particularly if your footage is cut among other smooth footage. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

December 3rd, 2003, 05:34 PM	#20
Peter Dorr New Boot Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Netherlands - Europe Posts: 21	Concert done already Hi, I was just wondering if the concert had already taken place and how the results were with hat settings? I tried to do the same thing on my very first night out with the camera (ok, I had put everything on automatic, it was only a test) but the results were far from what I had hoped for.

December 30th, 2003, 09:22 PM	#21
Michael Connor Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Durham, England Posts: 138	Yea me too wondering how concert turned out. Ive only done one concert that was actually in a cinema. I used two borrowed cameras and it turned into a blundering nightmare! Firstly the 'spare' camera was set on a tripod at wide angle. I selected low light mode, and autofocus. This was great with the lighting before the show. But when the show started and there were human faces on stage, they were all over exposed, white blobs, and i should have used 'spotlite mode'. Incidentally this worked a treat on the sony vdx2000 i had borrowed for use as the main camera. Only wish i had white ballanced it before hand, tho was ok. Audio. I had planned to use a mini disk as a sound source, i checked the levels when the music was on before the show, and they were fine. However when the show started all of the volumes were turned up louder, and i ended up having to use the audio from the camera! With hindsight id say, use auto focus, and auto levels for your audio, if your results are important, unless you are able to monitor it, are comfortable with it, or have someone else to help out. I like the idea of having a spare camera left alone on auto, so if you mess up the clever shots you have something to fall back on. Shame id set up the spare camera wrong! __________________ StMichael

November 13th, 2003, 01:38 PM	#19
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Thanks Ken. I've never come across this term before.

December 31st, 2003, 11:43 AM	#22
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	You can see a sample of XM2 on night outdoors concert and can compare with two other cameras: (the compression isn´t very good) See it on browser http://www.def3ct.com/federico/videos/haro.htm Download it http://www.def3ct.com/federico/videos/hdsl.wmv All the shots that look from down below were done with my XM2. Exposure and Aperture manual, auto white balance. All the On-stage shot were done with a really smal miniDv from panasonic... (don´t know the model) fully auto... All the Far-Wide Shots... were done with a Panasonic DVX-100, I don´t know the settings. Since the light changed so much and so often.. I underexposed the XM2 a bit to avoid a lot of "burned" whites, for some reason that day I thouhgt I´d preffer to loose the shadow details than the highlight details.. It was impossible to have both.. and the plans were to correct on post... but... I didn´t edit the footage... and I´m 120% sure that no color correction or deinterlace or anything was donde to the image, so that´s pretty much how it looks raw (and compressed). __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

December 31st, 2003, 11:54 AM	#23
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Excellent comparison test. Thanks for taking the time to post. Grazie

December 31st, 2003, 12:16 PM	#24
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Bernard : Excellent comparison test. Thanks for taking the time to post. Grazie -->>> No problem at all.. For me the problem to post is not a matter of time.. but a matter of space... WEBSPACE... I´d love to upload a whole bunch of shooting I´ve done with the XM2... and have it discussed, but at this moment I can´t afford more webspace. But in 2004 I hope stuff comes better for me (and for all of you too) so we can do a whole lot of posting... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

December 31st, 2003, 12:20 PM	#25
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	I wanna know who this well known artist is you shot??? How did the shoot go by the way? Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

December 31st, 2003, 12:41 PM	#26
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	That´s a band called H from La Rioja here in Spain... They are a new band so at this time they are nobodys struggling up... (like me). There were 5 bands that night.. Including the BIG one.. It´s called Macaco.. but I didn´t want to post a part of them because, they, and their agent were a little "Stars" that night, so I don´t want any problems with Labels... Besides I like H music better... The shooting was very good... it was the first time I tested my XM2 in live event... And it performed like I expected (love my Generic Brand big battery, It lasted more than 7 hours). The low light performance was not as bad as I thought... It is actually pretty good. And besides a little weird issue with the grip zoom (there´s a thread about it here)..overall I´d say it was an A day. __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

January 6th, 2004, 09:08 AM	#27
Jeff Patnaude Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Duluth, Georgia Posts: 248	My experience in doing camera work for concerts is mixed. Some groups will have a "stage wash" of white light which helps getting a good video image. Other groups have light directors who are more theatrical and use large color washes and dramatic lighting cues. Its hard to get good images with a smaller chip camera especially, when there's low light, and its all red as well. One of the other arguments to using manual aperture is that light levels will jump, and if the camera is in auto iris, you'll get blooming or hot spots and the iris will adjust a lot. Talk to the lighting guy before hand and find out what kind of light show they have. If you can. Can you get into he space ahead of time? Do you have more han one camera? good luck! Jeff Patnaude