Line at top of picture at DVinfo.net

David Deehan · June 29th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Hi everyone,

I have just completed my first wedding shoot. In post I applied a slow motion effect to a number of clips. On playback, at the top of all slow motion scenes, there was a flicker along the top. I therefore examined the clips in more detail. On close inspection I noticed a thin black line and a faint coloured line below that on all captured scenes. The colour of the faint line varied depending on the colour directly below it. I then examined many shots going right back to when the camera was bought. All exhibited the same lines along the top. When a clip’s velocity was slowed the re-sampling method used by VV4 introduced the flicker. This flicker does not occur on clips captured from an old Sony DV cam, using exactly the same hardware and software.

I realise that this is only visible on computer and not on television since there is no overscan on a monitor, but I often demonstrate my video on laptop.

I have posted examples of above at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.d...r/flicker.html

Additionally and to go over old ground again, I need some more advice on the Colour Bleed problem.
In my previous post (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=colour+bleed )
Jeff Donald recommended the use of an 85B filter. This I got, but sadly it had no effect on the bleed problem.
I have recently updated my web page with more examples of this problem (
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.d...XM2/index.html ). Maybe I’m expecting too much from the XM2.

Thanks in advance

David

Chris Fangio · June 29th, 2003, 04:25 PM

Hi David,

I also see this line when capturing via Premiere. I don't know if this is normal and if this also occurs when shooting in normal mode as I was using frame mode.

Chris

Jesper Hallen · June 29th, 2003, 04:28 PM

maybe it's the top ending of the picture you mean? it must have an end somewhere i believe. =)

Chris Fangio · July 1st, 2003, 07:22 AM

Are we the only ones with this line on top of the picture?

Rob Lohman · July 11th, 2003, 11:45 AM

I have a similar thing on the bottom with my XL1s. Do you guys
have a GL1 or 2? You might want to add a very small black bar
on the top before rendering out your final version. You won't
see it on a TV due to underscanning and on your laptop it will
look "natural/ok" because we are used to see black surrounding
movies etc.

David Deehan · July 12th, 2003, 05:45 PM

Rob

My camera is an XM2. The problem is not restricted to a single black line along the top, but also a faint coloured line below that. Have you checked out my website (see address in previous post) where there are some examples.

David

Rob Lohman · July 14th, 2003, 03:56 AM

I did check it out. But since I own an XL1s and not a GL/XM2 I
don't know if this is "normal" for your camera. I was hoping
someone else would respond to confirm or deny this....

Sorry I can't be of any more help to you.

David Deehan · July 15th, 2003, 08:49 AM

Rob

I’ve just discovered this thread from last year, which describes your problem with the XL1S in detail, namely a black bar along the bottom and a bright bar above that. (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743&highlight=black+line). This was certainly a very lively thread.

With my XM2 the problem is reversed – a black bar at the top of the picture with a coloured bar/bars below that. I am hoping those with an XM2 (or GL2) exhibiting the same will provide some feedback. Have many others also experienced this or is it a QC problem? Could this be a generic defect in XM2’s as it is with the XL1S (my little Sony TRV 25E does not exhibit this)? Have Canon only moved the symptom from the bottom of the picture to the top? Is it only evident on 3CCD cameras? Would I be right in saying that Canon semi-pro cameras are restricted to 720x574 (PAL) pixels or less (the coloured line can be stretch up to 3 pixels)? Having to crop all video is not an acceptable resolution.

David

Chris Fangio · July 15th, 2003, 11:55 AM

David,

as I mentioned before I also do have this problem with my XM2. So it would really be nice to hear from other people if they have this problem. I tried capturing via Scealyzer and Premiere and the problems keeps the same.

Did you use interlaced or frame mode?

Chris

David Deehan · July 15th, 2003, 03:35 PM

Chris,

I have looked at some clips shot in normal and frame mode. Both modes show lines at the top.
Are you just getting the "black line" or "black and coloured lines" as described above?

David

Graham Bernard · July 15th, 2003, 10:40 PM

David, where does this become a problem for you? If it is a problem for you, then I'd be very interested for my own piece of mind, to know where I should start concerning myself? For example, does this bar stuff appear in Pan/Crop in V4? Can you see this happen in frame size reduction? Is the bar visible in frame manipulation in general? Hmmm...

Grazie

Chris Fangio · July 15th, 2003, 11:26 PM

David,

my footage looks exactly like yours (at least the bars are the same). I will post some framegrabs this afternoon (it's 07:25 am here in Germany right now).

Grazie: As mentioned before the lines are visible right aber capturing no matter which software is used. At least this is my theory.

Graham Bernard · July 16th, 2003, 12:35 AM

. . . yes, I understood that, but do they or can they be seen in any V4 manipulation? Or are you only asking if there is an issue with having, as you go onto editing?

Grazie

David Deehan · August 1st, 2003, 02:07 PM

Hi everyone,

Apologies for plugging on about this problem, but I have just downloaded a clip mentioned in the following recent thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12679 . This uncompressed clip shows exactly the same black and coloured lines at the top of picture, which I experience. It is an extremely large clip (140MB), so to download a broadband connection is advisory. For those who have downloaded it, could they stop the clip at the 6 second mark and inspect the top few lines. I have in the past downloaded other clips but these were all GL2(NTSC), not XM2(Pal). The GL2 clips do not seem to exhibit this phenomenon.

By the way, if Jonathan Richards reads this post, I hope you don’t mind me making reference to your video file.

David

Bud Kuenzli · August 1st, 2003, 07:56 PM

in the fwiw category, my gl2 is indeed free of such lines.

June 29th, 2003, 03:19 PM	#1
David Deehan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belfast (Northern Ireland) Posts: 26	Line at top of picture Hi everyone, I have just completed my first wedding shoot. In post I applied a slow motion effect to a number of clips. On playback, at the top of all slow motion scenes, there was a flicker along the top. I therefore examined the clips in more detail. On close inspection I noticed a thin black line and a faint coloured line below that on all captured scenes. The colour of the faint line varied depending on the colour directly below it. I then examined many shots going right back to when the camera was bought. All exhibited the same lines along the top. When a clip’s velocity was slowed the re-sampling method used by VV4 introduced the flicker. This flicker does not occur on clips captured from an old Sony DV cam, using exactly the same hardware and software. I realise that this is only visible on computer and not on television since there is no overscan on a monitor, but I often demonstrate my video on laptop. I have posted examples of above at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.d...r/flicker.html Additionally and to go over old ground again, I need some more advice on the Colour Bleed problem. In my previous post (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=colour+bleed ) Jeff Donald recommended the use of an 85B filter. This I got, but sadly it had no effect on the bleed problem. I have recently updated my web page with more examples of this problem ( http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.d...XM2/index.html ). Maybe I’m expecting too much from the XM2. Thanks in advance David

June 29th, 2003, 04:28 PM	#3
Jesper Hallen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gothenburg, EU Posts: 35	maybe it's the top ending of the picture you mean? it must have an end somewhere i believe. =) __________________ - jeha!

July 11th, 2003, 11:45 AM	#5
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I have a similar thing on the bottom with my XL1s. Do you guys have a GL1 or 2? You might want to add a very small black bar on the top before rendering out your final version. You won't see it on a TV due to underscanning and on your laptop it will look "natural/ok" because we are used to see black surrounding movies etc. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 14th, 2003, 03:56 AM	#7
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I did check it out. But since I own an XL1s and not a GL/XM2 I don't know if this is "normal" for your camera. I was hoping someone else would respond to confirm or deny this.... Sorry I can't be of any more help to you. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

July 15th, 2003, 10:40 PM	#11
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Called to the Bar! David, where does this become a problem for you? If it is a problem for you, then I'd be very interested for my own piece of mind, to know where I should start concerning myself? For example, does this bar stuff appear in Pan/Crop in V4? Can you see this happen in frame size reduction? Is the bar visible in frame manipulation in general? Hmmm... Grazie

June 29th, 2003, 04:25 PM	#2
Chris Fangio Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Koblenz, Germany Posts: 70	Hi David, I also see this line when capturing via Premiere. I don't know if this is normal and if this also occurs when shooting in normal mode as I was using frame mode. Chris

July 1st, 2003, 07:22 AM	#4
Chris Fangio Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Koblenz, Germany Posts: 70	Are we the only ones with this line on top of the picture?

July 12th, 2003, 05:45 PM	#6
David Deehan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belfast (Northern Ireland) Posts: 26	Rob My camera is an XM2. The problem is not restricted to a single black line along the top, but also a faint coloured line below that. Have you checked out my website (see address in previous post) where there are some examples. David

July 15th, 2003, 08:49 AM	#8
David Deehan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belfast (Northern Ireland) Posts: 26	Rob I’ve just discovered this thread from last year, which describes your problem with the XL1S in detail, namely a black bar along the bottom and a bright bar above that. (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1743&highlight=black+line). This was certainly a very lively thread. With my XM2 the problem is reversed – a black bar at the top of the picture with a coloured bar/bars below that. I am hoping those with an XM2 (or GL2) exhibiting the same will provide some feedback. Have many others also experienced this or is it a QC problem? Could this be a generic defect in XM2’s as it is with the XL1S (my little Sony TRV 25E does not exhibit this)? Have Canon only moved the symptom from the bottom of the picture to the top? Is it only evident on 3CCD cameras? Would I be right in saying that Canon semi-pro cameras are restricted to 720x574 (PAL) pixels or less (the coloured line can be stretch up to 3 pixels)? Having to crop all video is not an acceptable resolution. David

July 15th, 2003, 11:55 AM	#9
Chris Fangio Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Koblenz, Germany Posts: 70	David, as I mentioned before I also do have this problem with my XM2. So it would really be nice to hear from other people if they have this problem. I tried capturing via Scealyzer and Premiere and the problems keeps the same. Did you use interlaced or frame mode? Chris

July 15th, 2003, 03:35 PM	#10
David Deehan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belfast (Northern Ireland) Posts: 26	Chris, I have looked at some clips shot in normal and frame mode. Both modes show lines at the top. Are you just getting the "black line" or "black and coloured lines" as described above? David

July 15th, 2003, 11:26 PM	#12
Chris Fangio Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Koblenz, Germany Posts: 70	David, my footage looks exactly like yours (at least the bars are the same). I will post some framegrabs this afternoon (it's 07:25 am here in Germany right now). Grazie: As mentioned before the lines are visible right aber capturing no matter which software is used. At least this is my theory.

July 16th, 2003, 12:35 AM	#13
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	. . . yes, I understood that, but do they or can they be seen in any V4 manipulation? Or are you only asking if there is an issue with having, as you go onto editing? Grazie

August 1st, 2003, 02:07 PM	#14
David Deehan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Belfast (Northern Ireland) Posts: 26	Hi everyone, Apologies for plugging on about this problem, but I have just downloaded a clip mentioned in the following recent thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12679 . This uncompressed clip shows exactly the same black and coloured lines at the top of picture, which I experience. It is an extremely large clip (140MB), so to download a broadband connection is advisory. For those who have downloaded it, could they stop the clip at the 6 second mark and inspect the top few lines. I have in the past downloaded other clips but these were all GL2(NTSC), not XM2(Pal). The GL2 clips do not seem to exhibit this phenomenon. By the way, if Jonathan Richards reads this post, I hope you don’t mind me making reference to your video file. David

August 1st, 2003, 07:56 PM	#15
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	my gl2 is free of such lines in the fwiw category, my gl2 is indeed free of such lines. __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are