Camcorder equal to the 5D quality?

[Andy Solaini]

Originally Posted by Danny Winn

Thanks for the great info Andy, I guess I probably left out some important details. 1, the gym I shoot in (Jacksons MMA) is very dark, dark grey walls and black ceiling. I Have decent dayflo lights but not nearly enought to light the whole gym up. 2, Since it's MMA Action, I would love to speed my shutter up to at least 1/100 to prevent motion blur, can't do that with my XH A1s with gain set to low, have to shoot at 1/30th becasue of the low light. I never use medium or high gain because of all the noise and grain of course, even with all my custom presets optimized. 3, MUST HAVE LIVE AUTO FOCUS. 4, I am very good at color correcting mediocre footage, the problem is that some of the orginizations I shoot for want the raw un CC'd footage, ugh, so hard to send when it's not perfect.

So what I need is most likely not in my budget unfortunately, guess I'll just have to do more spec work and earn enough money to be able to afford what I really need.

Thanks again!

Yeah you have a tricky choice there. My idea camera would be an XF300 with the low light ability of the C300. I film a lot in airplanes on the flight deck where it is very low light usually. Live AF is useful but I can sacrifice it for better low light performance hence wanting a C300. I will be keeping my XF300 for anything that absolutely requires live AF. I can certainly understand why it's essential for your use.

[Chris Barcellos]

I have the 5D Mark II and Sony VG20. VG20 with Kit lens has very good autofocus comparable with my FX1. Its an APC size sensor. Very good low light- in my opinion a much nicer grain at higher ISO that even the 5D. . Only bitch I have ever had on the camera is lack of Picture Style settings. It does send clean HDMI out for capture to my Black Magic Shuttle. Some comparisons below.

Low Light Test of VG 20 on Vimeo

Low Light Noise Testing Comparison with the Sony VG20 and Canon 5D on Vimeo

ChartTest for Sony VG20 on Vimeo

Canon 5D chart Tests on Vimeo

[Danny Winn]

[QUOTE=Chris Barcellos;1780813]I have the 5D Mark II and Sony VG20. VG20 with Kit lens has very good autofocus comparable with my FX1. Its an APC size sensor. Very good low light- in my opinion a much nicer grain at higher ISO that even the 5D. . Only bitch I have ever had on the camera is lack of Picture Style settings. It does send clean HDMI out for capture to my Black Magic Shuttle. Some comparisons below.

Thanks Chris, the VG20 sure looks impressive in low light, but as I said before, Live Auto Focus is a must. Looks like the VG20 is all manual, is that correct?

[Al Bergstein]

Boy, your low light and live focus requirements are a pretty tough nut to crack. The xf305 has great live focus, but it is marginal in really low light, so I can't vouch that it would nail your gym needs. However, before you give up, take a look at this video, shot by a guy in Italy with the 305. He certainly got better low light performance out of the 305 than I have done, but to be clear, I think the 305 has excellent overall performance. I also own a 5Dmkiii, and they are two different tools. 5D for shallow DOF, 305 for wide angle run and gun, along with shallow DOF when I can move back from the talent a ways, and tele in. They both are fabulous tools, and it's very hard for me to choose which one to take on any given day. I usually throw both in the van and decide later based on the light (G)

In your shoes I would think *very* hard about the C100. It's sort of a grown up 5D. (no knock intended!). The newer Sony might also work well for you, as described above. But the EX1 did not seem to have much more in low light than the 305 (it had some, but not like working with a full frame HDSLR).

Don't know that I would recommend the Canon XLH1 unless you prefer tape, or could find this used somewhere. For the price, tape is so hard to justify these days. I personally would never choose to be shooting to tape if I could afford a similar CF card camera.

Shot with an XF305...

The Artisan's Touch - La Mano dell'Artigiano Webseries Trailer on Vimeo

[Danny Winn]

[QUOTE=Al Bergstein;1780869]Boy, your low light and live focus requirements are a pretty tough nut to crack. The xf305 has great live focus, but it is marginal in really low light, so I can't vouch that it would nail your gym needs. However, before you give up, take a look at this video, shot by a guy in Italy with the 305. He certainly got better low light performance out of the 305 than I have done, but to be clear, I think the 305 has excellent overall performance. I also own a 5Dmkiii, and they are two different tools. 5D for shallow DOF, 305 for wide angle run and gun, along with shallow DOF when I can move back from the talent a ways, and tele in. They both are fabulous tools, and it's very hard for me to choose which one to take on any given day. I usually throw both in the van and decide later based on the light (G)

In your shoes I would think *very* hard about the C100. It's sort of a grown up 5D. (no knock intended!). The newer Sony might also work well for you, as described above. But the EX1 did not seem to have much more in low light than the 305 (it had some, but not like working with a full frame HDSLR).

Don't know that I would recommend the Canon XLH1 unless you prefer tape, or could find this used somewhere. For the price, tape is so hard to justify these days. I personally would never choose to be shooting to tape if I could afford a similar CF card camera.

Shot with an XF305...

Thanks much Al, wow that video with the 305 is pretty impressive, would probably do the trick but I doubt I would be able to get a shutter of 1/100 to prevent motion blur. My 5D MKII would work great in the low light condithions but like the C100 it does not have live auto focus either. I'm afraid that the dream cam that I would need is about $3000 out of my budget. Just gonna have to earn more money I guess.

Thanks again!

[Maurice Covington]

Danny,

I don't know what the expectations of your clients are nor do I know how you're compensated for your work but it sounds like you need to explain to your clients that just as without light they cannot see, neither can your cameras. If they want better footage, they might be willing to mount lighting at the top of the cage. I shoot basketball games and martial arts competitions in gymnasiums from time to time and the light is not great but I can make it work. I would imagine with all of the focus being on a small cage, there must be a signifiant light source. Now with that being said, I have never been to an MMA event. Do you have some footage to demonstrate what kind of light you are working with? I am very curious.

[Danny Winn]

Originally Posted by Maurice Covington

Danny,

I don't know what the expectations of your clients are nor do I know how you're compensated for your work but it sounds like you need to explain to your clients that just as without light they cannot see, neither can your cameras. If they want better footage, they might be willing to mount lighting at the top of the cage. I shoot basketball games and martial arts competitions in gymnasiums from time to time and the light is not great but I can make it work. I would imagine with all of the focus being on a small cage, there must be a signifiant light source. Now with that being said, I have never been to an MMA event. Do you have some footage to demonstrate what kind of light you are working with? I am very curious.

Sure Maurice, below is some footage of my friend UFC fighter Cub Swanson shot a few weeks ago. This footage is decent in the fact that I could easily color correct a lot of it's flaws, however if you tried to grab a still or go to slo-mo you would get tons of motion blur, just look at the thumbnail. This was shot at low gain (-3db) anything higher creates way too much grain and noise for broadcast TV. My goal would be to shoot at at least 1/100th SS, but theres no way I can do that with this cam with the available lighting. This shot also demonstrate why it is essential that I have Live Auto Focus;)

In most cases I cannot bring a bunch of lighting rigs for these types of shots because theres usually 30 other fighters training all at the same time they get knocked down and in the way,

Thanks

MMA Training - Jacksons MMA on Vimeo

[Chris Barcellos]

[quote=Danny Winn;1780865]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Thanks Chris, the VG20 sure looks impressive in low light, but as I said before, Live Auto Focus is a must. Looks like the VG20 is all manual, is that correct?

No, not correct. With Sony lenses, including kit 18 to 200, auto focus is on board. Not sure, but you may even be able to use autofocus feature on some Canon glass, given right adapter.

[Maurice Covington]

I don't know if the others would agree with me but I'd like to offer a few comments.

First, I can't tell if lighting is an issue. More specifically, if the gym is dark, why not shoot it as it is. You will still get good sharp footage. The only drawback would be that it's not as well lit as if the gym were actually well lit.

Second, if you don't have to shoot 60 fps, why not shoot 24 fps. You will get a lot more light into the camera. This will allow you to use less gain or the same and get a brighter image.

Third, good workout. Keep it going!

If my understanding of shooting is correct, when shooting 60fps, you'll want to shoot at a minimum of 1/120 and if your shooting 24fps, you'll want to shoot at a minimum of 1/48 both of which should minimize or eliminate motion blur.

[Danny Winn]

Originally Posted by Maurice Covington

I don't know if the others would agree with me but I'd like to offer a few comments.

First, I can't tell if lighting is an issue. More specifically, if the gym is dark, why not shoot it as it is. You will still get good sharp footage. The only drawback would be that it's not as well lit as if the gym were actually well lit.

Second, if you don't have to shoot 60 fps, why not shoot 24 fps. You will get a lot more light into the camera. This will allow you to use less gain or the same and get a brighter image.

Third, good workout. Keep it going!

If my understanding of shooting is correct, when shooting 60fps, you'll want to shoot at a minimum of 1/120 and if your shooting 24fps, you'll want to shoot at a minimum of 1/48 both of which should minimize or eliminate motion blur.

Hey Maurice, the customers I shoot for (MMA speaking) request 60fps, I hate it, I shoot all my own stuff at 30p. They like it cause they use a lot of Slo-mo. But having said that, even shooting at 30p or 24p is not much better looking than the video I posted. I don't have 1/48 option on my XH A1s, I also dont have a 60P option, only 60i which is crap IMO.

If you've ever seen a UFC Countdown show, they bring their own PRO crews in, they use $90,000 cameras with extremely high shutter speeds that have no problem with the available lighting.

Bottom line, there's just no way I can meet my own personal standards with my current XH A1s. If my 5D MKII only had live auto focus I'd be fine. Haha

I just need to save more money brother. Thanks

[Danny Winn]

[quote=Chris Barcellos;1781164]

Originally Posted by Danny Winn

No, not correct. With Sony lenses, including kit 18 to 200, auto focus is on board. Not sure, but you may even be able to use autofocus feature on some Canon glass, given right adapter.

Chris, are you talking about full live auto focus like a camcorder or one button push AF like the 5D has?

[Chris Barcellos]

It is live just like the Sony FX1. Continuous autofocus.

This video, though probably graded a bit on dark side by me, was shot entirely with autofocus.

Branding Clips on Vimeo

[Chris Barcellos]

As I recall, this one was shot with mostly autofocus ( Nite probably a fixed Nikon lens, no auto focuss)

It Happened In Hawaii on Vimeo

[Paul Wags]

After using my Sony VG30 for the last couple of weeks, the ability to shoot on full auto focus with the beautiful 18-200 mm in manual or servo mode on the fly leaves the old DSLR's for dead.

I took it up in a Jetranger (Helicopter) over the weekend and the results hand held came out pretty good shooting in 50p on auto-focus. Add some more stabilization in post and you can get some great useful footage. Quality of that 28mbps AVCHD is wonderful but of course not as good as a true HD compression rates.

For low light its about the same as my Canon 60D with the Tokina 11-16mm on it.

[Bill Bruner]

Chris and Paul - sadly, Danny wants an XLR input for his Rode NTG-3 and the

VG20

 

VG20

&

VG30

 

VG30

have 3.5mm mic inputs (although there's a way around that with a

$17 line matching adapter

 

$17 line matching adapter

:)).

Danny - the big brother to the VG20/30, the Sony FS100, can almost see in the dark, has XLR inputs, full 1080/60 progressive to get rid of interlacing, and solid autofocus with E mount system lenses. It might be what you need.

Philip Bloom shot this in the gym with a Sony NEX-FS100, a Rode NTG-3 and manual Zeiss lenses:

Portrait of a boxer on Vimeo

You can get it new for $4799 with the 18-200 lens and $4199 body only.

Or you can pick one up used on eBay for as little as $3535.

To save money, I would buy the used body, plus a couple of inexpensive autofocusing f2.8 Sigma lenses, the

$139 19mm

 

$139 19mm

and the

$149 30mm

 

$149 30mm

.

Here is what the FS100 can do in candlelight with the little Sigma 19mm f2.8 on it:

Sony NEX-FS100 & Sigma 19mm f 2:8 on Vimeo

Sadly, the FS100 is not compatible with Sony's new power zoom lenses.

You would have to step up to the NEX-FS700 for that - but it costs $7999(!) body only.

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your decision!

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution