Blacks are VERY black with the EOS 5D Mk2 - (or is it me)?

[Andy Nickless]

As I said in my previous post, I'm really impressed with the EOS 5D. I'm really hoping it will be a great asset in our productions.

I've found various ways around the difference in ergonomics between the (in our case Sony EX1R) camcorder and a DSLR - and I'm seriously considering investing in the SmallHD DP-6 monitor as focus is critical and as far as I can see, this is the only field monitor of its class with true 1080.
DP6-SLR ? 5.6" Field Monitor

Before I make this commitment, though, I'm still struggling slightly with the very heavy blacks I'm getting with the 5D 2.

Even with contrast, sharpening and saturation turned right down in the menu, the blacks are very black - as the image shows.

As our main 'talent' is sheepdogs (herding dogs) this is a real problem, as the coat detail is often lost and they look like black blobs (often with no eyes)!

Can anyone suggest a possible way to lighten these blacks just a tad?
(Thanks in advance).

[Chris Medico]

This problem is due to the colorspace the camera uses. You are recording in RGB with the Canons which registers black as zero on the luminance scale. When you bring the footage into an editing system if that system doesn't recognize the colorspace as RGB then it clips off everything below luminance 16 (the level for black in the video world).

You will want to look up the best way to import RGB video into your editing application.

I can't recommend more without knowing the details of your workflow and the software you are using.

FYI - The SmallHD monitor is a true 720 monitor. Even though its not 1080 I consider it a must have for the Canon cameras. Awesome for focus and the false color is great for exposure.

[Andy Nickless]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

The SmallHD monitor is a true 720 monitor. Even though its not 1080 I consider it a must have for the Canon cameras. Awesome for focus and the false color is great for exposure.

Thanks Chris - My mistake - too many late nights and it's Monday, isn't it. Of course, I meant 720.

I can't recommend more without knowing the details of your workflow and the software you are using.

I'm using FCP X - I just drag the files off the Card, onto my G-Tech HD and then import with FCP X (with no optimising or anything - pure native editing at the moment).

If there's something I can do to help, I'll gladly change the workflow (even the editing software if necessary).

[Chris Medico]

Unfortunately I'm on Avid and haven't worked with the latest version of FC yet.

As a test try one of the free video conversion utilities to convert the 5d files to ProRes and see if you get the same results. You may also want to try QT Pro if you have that on your machine.

On my end I'm hoping that v6 of Media Composer improves the workflow for the dSLR stuff. Its not as straight forward as it should be.

[Andy Nickless]

Thanks again, Chris.
FCP X is awesome - but still a little quirky and there are some important features missing (such as an easy way to reconnect clips if the media goes offline) but it's definitely way, way better than FCP 7 (and I was a big fan of the old FCP).

When you import files into FCP X you have the option to convert them to ProRes 422 on import - but because my MacPro can edit and playback XDCAM EX natively, I have not bothered until now, but I'll make a point of importing the EOS 5D footage as PR 422 to see whether that helps. Colour grading with FCP X is vastly improved too, so I'm hopeful I can cope with the 5D footage.

Ironically, one of the reasons I want the 5D mk2 is to INCREASE my depth of field (i.e. everything in focus). When we're shooting fast-moving dogs, it's hard to keep them in focus with a camera that's basically limited to iris settings smaller than f4.5.

From what I've seen (mainly Panasonic and Sony) image quality falls off very sharply on all prosumer cameras at anything smaller than f5.6 and anything over 6.7 is totally unacceptable. To be honest, I think it's very dishonest of manufacturers to claim their lenses cover iris settings of (say) f1.6 to f16, when in fact the resolution is absolute rubbish at most of that range.

I guess they get away with it because it's too technical for the trading standards people to understand - especially when you bear in mind that "depth of field" is now the commonly used term for "shallow depth of field".

My camera equipment supplier recently told me about a customer who said "I'm going to shoot some depth of field this afternoon".

(Oh dear, am I ranting again)?

Anyway, my point is, that the Canon EF lenses give excellent resolution at the middle of the aperture range and are perfectly acceptable right up to f16, so I'm hoping this will help us keep the dogs in focus - ironic when you consider that probably 95% of buyers invest in the same camera for the opposite effect!

[Chris Medico]

Keep an eye on the images at f/16. The diffraction limit due to aperture of the 5d II is between f/8 and f/11. So its a couple stops further down the iris range than the cameras you mention but it can't escape the physics all together.

Be sure to post back any good workflows you figure out to maintain that shadow detail.

[Andy Nickless]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

Keep an eye on the images at f/16. The diffraction limit due to aperture of the 5d II is between f/8 and f/11. So its a couple stops further down the iris range than the cameras you mention but it can't escape the physics all together.

I'll watch that (I was unaware of those levels).
Are you saying the EX1 'safe' iris levels are different to those I mentioned as well, or just the 5D II?

Be sure to post back any good workflows you figure out to maintain that shadow detail.

I will - thanks again, Chris.

[Justin Molush]

The lack of built in NDs on DSLRs really make it a necessity to use the screw on types to get the f stop down to an acceptable level. I really dont like shooting past f/8.

On the topic of the of blacks - it probably depends on the editing software you are using. I have no issue with any clipped blacks on my 7D when editing in CS5 using the DSLR presets. I looks like you are editing in FCPX?

[Chris Medico]

Originally Posted by Andy Nickless

I'll watch that (I was unaware of those levels).
Are you saying the EX1 'safe' iris levels are different to those I mentioned as well, or just the 5D II?


I will - thanks again, Chris.

You are most welcome. Happy to share what I've figured out.

You are right on target with your observations. The reasonable limit for the EX1 is f/5.6. Beyond that softening is really noticeable. I try to keep my EX1 between f/2.8 and f/4.5 and that makes for a nice image.

On the flip side the DOF of the EX1 with a similar FOV is much deeper than what you will get with the 5d. I've not had any trouble keeping race cars coming directly towards me at 150mph in focus (even at the long end of the lens). When you are in the mid 1/3 of the zoom on the EX1 the hyperfocal distance is between 20-35' which makes it much easier to keep your subject sharp.

When I'm looking for DOF control I grab the F3 or the 7d (shoot budget depending). If I'm going to be shooting things that move the EX1 is hard to beat as a total package solution.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Regarding the color range, avoid Quicktime decoding. The last I checked it messed with the gamma in 8-bit space. That's bad form!

The simplest approach for me is to transcode to Cineform with NeoScene. It's about $100 and has a free license for a week, so you can try it out. It moves the full range signal (0-255) to a ten bit space and sets black and white at typical video levels (64-940 in 10 bit land.)

[Robert Turchick]

Mixing DSLR footage with a camcorder like the ex1r will make the camcorder look dull and the DSLR oversaturated without some processing which is best done with custom picture profiles.
On my 7D and my friends 5D we use the Philip bloom recommended settings to tone down the DSLR. There's probably a bunch of threads on settings for the EX1 to make it match. I've got my XF300 dialed in and the 3 cameras match really well and allow grading to be performed with ease.

I suspect that in addition to the gamma issues in converting for FCP, you would benefit from the adjustments mentioned above. As for footage conversion, I use magic bullet grinder which seems to work well.

[Josh Bass]

Hi.

Firstly, yes, I have the super ridonkulous deep blacks when I use the 5D as well. That's with a neutral PP set to contrast all the way down, sharpness all the way down, saturation -2. Granted, I've been shooting a SUPER MOODY MOVIE, so that's not the best way to judge. I'll have to look at the scant few brightly lit/daylight scenes we have and see if it was an issue.

Are you guys saying we should be doing something with the footage other than converting via 5D2RGB (or similar) to Prores files (for FCP editing)? and then proceeding?

Also, we have been judging footage on set off an SD Sony production monitor, via the AV out on the 5D, calibrated to bars from my XL2. Not an ideal solution by any means, but the one we have available. We sometimes hook up to a PC monitor via HDMI when we're happy with the lighting, to monitor focus. I have noticed that not only do the PC monitor image and the CRT image (of course) look different, they look WAY different. . .PC is much brighter, to the point of noise, and far less colorful. I have noticed the same thing to a far lesser degree when playing back footage from the cam while it's hooked up to my plasma TV. Is this something to do with the HDMI connection vs the AV out? Do they treat color space differently or something?

[Chris Medico]

I've not looked at 5D2RGB since I'm in the PC world but that is exactly what I would use in lieu of QT or the editing system for the transcoding.

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

...Is this something to do with the HDMI connection vs the AV out? Do they treat color space differently or something?

The AV Out is composite NTSC where as the HDMI is a digital HD signal. They are quite different. NTSC is commonly referred to as Never The Same Color.

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Robert Turchick

...There's probably a bunch of threads on settings for the EX1 to make it match. ...

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Hi.
...I have the super ridonkulous deep blacks when I use the 5D as well. That's with a neutral PP set to contrast all the way down, sharpness all the way down, saturation -2. ...

@Josh.... if you are trying to match the 5D and EX1, this thread shows commonly used EX1 Picture Profile and 5D settings to do that:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...ompatible.html