What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit?

Nigel Barker · May 25th, 2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

Lee, I read that long review of all the viewfinders. Most of his points are well taken, but he's way obsolete on the Hoodman criticism. It does have a 3X magnifier and diopter and has had for a long time. I got the Hoodcrane version, which mounts the device in a "crane" type arrangement off the hotshoe, with a flipup mechanism. I like the mounting, but the flipup part sucks. It's so difficult to use I just don't use it. Instead I slip the finder out of the mount on top It goes in and out easily. Now that Zacuto as the bottom mounting plate, I like it much better. However, my next purchase is going to probably be the Cineroid EVF. I'm holding off to see what Redrock will bring to the table.

The optics on the Hoodman are horrible. There is a small central portion that is clear but all round the edges it's terribly distorted so unless your eyeball is dead centre it's next to useless. The Zacuto is good especially with the plate at the bottom so you don't need to glue anything to your camera however be aware that it doesn't magically increase the resolution of the LCD screen which is only 640x480. It just magnifies the pixels. I have a Cineroid EVF but find it unwieldy to use with the 5DII plus the peaking & zebras are not that useful & are nowhere near proper zebras & focus aids that you find on a proper camcorder. The LCDVF has good optics & while you do need to stick a plate to your camera it works well if you are younger & your eyes have good accommodation so that you can live without a dioptre adjustment. Personally I would avoid the cheap LCDVF knock-offs as there is no way of knowing how good the optics are & at around a $100 it's not that much more expensive than the rip-offs in any case.

Jon Fairhurst · May 25th, 2011, 10:30 AM

Nigel Barker wrote:
"The optics on the Hoodman are horrible. There is a small central portion that is clear but all round the edges it's terribly distorted so unless your eyeball is dead centre it's next to useless."

That was true of the original Hoodloupe; however, the x3 magnifier solves the problem for all practical purposes. I prefer the Z-Finder, but for the money, I'd buy the Hoodloupe (and x3) again.

FWIW, the rubber bands are useless. I bought a Chinese LCD frame and modified it as a mount, but it was a kludge and didn't hold up over time. The RedRock mount is solid, professional looking, and travels well. The only problem is that it doesn't go on/off quickly.

Les Wilson · May 25th, 2011, 10:52 AM

Bill, Nigel...good points.

I have a Hoodman from my EX1r but never shoot that way. I had the same impression about the optics...meh. If it had a better way to attach I might have tried it. I ordered the LCDVF from an authorized dealer to make sure I got a real one.

I have a low tolerance for having to play with things to make them work. ML would have to be rock solid for me use it so the feedback will save me some time... will look at it later.

The Cineroid caught my interest as the new one has an SDI out. But if I got it right, the camera HDMI out is still 640x480 during recording. If the 5DM2 were my main camera then *maybe*.... but for me it's an accessory. Hopefully I can get good enough using prefocus and the LCDVF when rolling.

Back on the 50mm subject, both dpreview and Ken Rockwell say the bokeh on the Canon 1.8 and 1.4 are not so good. The Sigma 50mm 1.4 seems to have the best bokeh and the fact that it has the same filter size as the 24-70 2.8L has some advantage for the minimalist agenda.

Anyone using the Sigma 50mm 1.4 for video?

Chris Barcellos · May 25th, 2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

I wouldn't bother with Magic Lantern at all. The menus look fantastic but as soon as you start using it then it falls apart in a horrible coloured mess. After a bit of use becomes impossible to change items in the menus & you wind up having to reboot the camera to regain control. Neither the zebras nor the false colours are useful. I really cannot see what all the fuss is about. I have tried several times over the years to love Magic Lantern as obviously an awful lot of work has been put into it but each time I try a new version after a few minutes frustration I remove it & revert to the Canon firmware.

I guess this goes under the heading of "Some can, and some can"t". Magic Lantern is a tool to help improve your professional output, and that is why I recommended you learn it. Nigel prefers not to learn it and so he will lose the capabilities you will have if you learn it. It may make a difference for you, but it certainly won't for him.

My point of recommending learning Magic Lantern is that it comes in handy in certain situations like you are describing here. I prefer not to use it either. But there are times when you want the choice. I have chips that I have it loaded on, and chips that I don't. When I need exposure help while shooting only with the LCD, I shoot with it, because I can't really tell just for LCD whether I am hitting it right. I don't think anybody can. I don't need ML when I am using a monitor with false colors like my Marshall. I do need Magic Lantern if I am feeding sound directly to camera. It has been clearly proven that the adjustment provided to audio on latest 5D firmware do not do enough to clean up sound issues. And you are not able to monitor sound on onscreen meters or out of camera without having Magic Lantern. If I shoot double system, then I don't need it. So I look at it as a necessary evil in certain situations. And, like all professionals on all aspects of equipment, you need to follow things as they change with the programs. There is no doubt AJ's Magic Lantern is still in development. It does not work on HDMI out for instance, at present. On the other hand, the T2i development group seems to have gotten a lot of that resolved, and that will eventually be transferred to the 5D versions too.

As I said, do yourself a favor, and check it out.

Bill Davis · May 25th, 2011, 12:30 PM

Since the OP indicated a "minimalist" approach - I'd heartily recommend that you consider this not just in terms of the number of gizmos you haul along or even the cost of said gizmos...

Think of the WEIGHT you're going to schlepp.

While the Canon L lenses in 24-70 and 70-200 will give you wonderful results and cover a superior range of focal lengths - the WEIGHT BURDEN is going to be just under 5 pounds (2260 grams) for the glass alone.

In these days of up to $150 per bag in excess weight (often over 50 lbs) charges - I'm more obsessive about weight when shooting on the road than anything else.

For what it's worth.

Les Wilson · May 25th, 2011, 09:33 PM

Well the camera arrived today so I am starting the journey. After reading the Sigma 50mm review in dpreview, I ordered one. Compared to the Canon 1.4 and 1.8, it has the best bokeh and sharpness on full frame. SInce I am not the principle photographer, I might just take the 50 and the 85 an leave the 24-70 2.8L (and it's weight) at home.

@Chris, I'll get to ML eventually, my style is to learn the camera and get it to bend to my will using the stock firmware. Once I know what's lacking, then I'll trade off the ML capability with it's quirkiness. The LCDVF is a concession on that based on overwhelming feedback.

Nigel Barker · May 26th, 2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I guess this goes under the heading of "Some can, and some can"t". Magic Lantern is a tool to help improve your professional output, and that is why I recommended you learn it. Nigel prefers not to learn it and so he will lose the capabilities you will have if you learn it. It may make a difference for you, but it certainly won't for him.

Chris, I am not dissing Magic Lantern as I appreciate the enormous amount of work that has been put into it but from my point of view it simply doesn't live up to the promise of those colourful & beautifully laid out menus. Even if the zebras were of any use the fact that the menus become unresponsive after a minute or two of fiddling around with changing settings so that I need to reboot the camera to regain control means that ML is far too buggy. I am using dual system sound so in common with I suspect 99+% of other video professionals using the 5DII for video work I choose not to waste my time with buggy software that cannot be relied on. I am just really sorry that ML doesn't reliably deliver the additional functions found in the menus.

Jon Fairhurst · May 26th, 2011, 12:37 PM

Personally, I think if you're doing much with menus in ML, you're using it wrong. :)

I like to set up ML - especially for audio - in the config file and let it roll. At most, I'll check exposure, and then it's back to standard usage. That keeps setup time quick and reliable.

Chris Barcellos · May 26th, 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

Chris, I am not dissing Magic Lantern as I appreciate the enormous amount of work that has been put into it but from my point of view it simply doesn't live up to the promise of those colourful & beautifully laid out menus. Even if the zebras were of any use the fact that the menus become unresponsive after a minute or two of fiddling around with changing settings so that I need to reboot the camera to regain control means that ML is far too buggy. I am using dual system sound so in common with I suspect 99+% of other video professionals using the 5DII for video work I choose not to waste my time with buggy software that cannot be relied on. I am just really sorry that ML doesn't reliably deliver the additional functions found in the menus.

Nigel, I don't know what version you are referring to. AJ Newman's version can be set to turn everything off that you don't want and then be forgotten. I have no doubt there will be an occasional burp. The 5.6 version seems very stable. In fact, I wish the newest versions of ML-- which have been eminating from the T2i versions, weren't adding so much junk. I think the next add on will be a micro wave oven, or something like that. The propensity of developers to try to make it all things for all users, has created complexity for sure.

Your 2nd post also refer to zebras. I am not talking about zebras. I am talking about false colors which allows you to assess the relative brightness of each zone of your image lightening fast and to make ISO, aperature, or ND adjustments on the fly to fix issues, and then hot switch it back off and shoot. Its a way of assuring your shadows and highlights are still showing detail, and allowing you to get proper exposure to faces. I agree double system advances like Dual Eyes and Plural Eyes have changed what I need from Magic Lantern, but our OP here is going one man from what I discerned, and so Magic Lantern sound control can only help in that area.

Nigel Barker · May 27th, 2011, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Your 2nd post also refer to zebras. I am not talking about zebras. I am talking about false colors which allows you to assess the relative brightness of each zone of your image lightening fast and to make ISO, aperature, or ND adjustments on the fly to fix issues, and then hot switch it back off and shoot. Its a way of assuring your shadows and highlights are still showing detail, and allowing you to get proper exposure to faces.

I am glad that you agree that the zebras are useless. I shall have another look at the false colours. Part of the problem that I find with using Magic Lantern is the lack of simple documentation. The wiki is all very well but as the AJ version is a complete re-write which just happens to be confusingly also called Magic Lantern it needs new documentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I agree double system advances like Dual Eyes and Plural Eyes have changed what I need from Magic Lantern, but our OP here is going one man from what I discerned, and so Magic Lantern sound control can only help in that area.

The OP may be a one man band but he was not proposing to use the 5DII for audio at all

Quote:

Audio and long DOF and run and gun shots will all be on the EX1R.

Les Wilson · May 27th, 2011, 03:29 AM

Just to pile on the conversation, like others who use modern field monitors like the Marshall, false colors, peaking and 1:1 crop are features that have drastically changed the way I do exposure and critical focus on my EX1r but they aren't so portable as to come along on a cross continental journey so what's in the camera is critical. ML's false colors and the magnified areas of the display while recording are both attractive features (for me) to the AJ version of Magic Lantern. But for me, they have to work solidly and not lock up the camera.

I'm still getting used to the 5Dm2. It's disappointing to not have a live exposure and focus aids while recording. Unless I'm doing something wrong, both the live histogram and the 5x/10x turn off when record is pressed. So it's left up to the eye to get focus and exposure right once recording starts. It's disappointing but in context, the FF light sensitivity and SDOF still outweigh alternatives like the VG10 which doesn't do photos and has no focus and exposure assists at all. Ditto the Sony or MFT bodies like the GH2 that are chock full of focus and exposure assist features. I'd still rather have the benefits of the FF and full compatibility with my Canon glass. But that's me.

I think, at this late stage in the product's life, I wouldn't expect Canon to provide those features, ever. I think it would no doubt be a key feature in the next model and putting it into the 5DM2 would inhibit upgrades. So in that sense, ML is probably the only hope short of adding a monitor or VF like the Cineroid. All things being equal, for a minimalist approach, I'd rather have the function in firmware than a frankenstein configuration.

Greg Fiske · May 27th, 2011, 10:02 AM

"So in that sense, ML is probably the only hope short of adding a monitor or VF like the Cineroid"

Smallhd 6dp seems like good option, although an expensive one compared to free.

Les Wilson · June 1st, 2011, 05:43 PM

EPILOG: I received the LCDVF and tried it immediately. I have normal middle age farsightedness ... no coke bottles ... but I cannot use it without a diopter and had to return it. YMMV

Spiros Zaharakis · June 2nd, 2011, 03:07 PM

Try this

GGS LCD Viewfinder Loupes 3X For 7D 5DII 550D 600D ab41 | eBay UK it has diopter adjustments and it's cheap

Nigel Barker · June 8th, 2011, 10:46 AM

That GGS LCD Viewfinder looks worth considering at about one eighth the price of a Zacuto Z-Finder. I have just ordered one from a supplier in the UK for just £42.50 (€48/$70) including delivery

New LCD viewfinder For Canon 7D 5D Mark II on eBay (end time 13-Jun-11 03:21:25 BST)

May 25th, 2011, 10:30 AM	#17
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Nigel Barker wrote: "The optics on the Hoodman are horrible. There is a small central portion that is clear but all round the edges it's terribly distorted so unless your eyeball is dead centre it's next to useless." That was true of the original Hoodloupe; however, the x3 magnifier solves the problem for all practical purposes. I prefer the Z-Finder, but for the money, I'd buy the Hoodloupe (and x3) again. FWIW, the rubber bands are useless. I bought a Chinese LCD frame and modified it as a mount, but it was a kludge and didn't hold up over time. The RedRock mount is solid, professional looking, and travels well. The only problem is that it doesn't go on/off quickly. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 25th, 2011, 10:52 AM	#18
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Bill, Nigel...good points. I have a Hoodman from my EX1r but never shoot that way. I had the same impression about the optics...meh. If it had a better way to attach I might have tried it. I ordered the LCDVF from an authorized dealer to make sure I got a real one. I have a low tolerance for having to play with things to make them work. ML would have to be rock solid for me use it so the feedback will save me some time... will look at it later. The Cineroid caught my interest as the new one has an SDI out. But if I got it right, the camera HDMI out is still 640x480 during recording. If the 5DM2 were my main camera then maybe.... but for me it's an accessory. Hopefully I can get good enough using prefocus and the LCDVF when rolling. Back on the 50mm subject, both dpreview and Ken Rockwell say the bokeh on the Canon 1.8 and 1.4 are not so good. The Sigma 50mm 1.4 seems to have the best bokeh and the fact that it has the same filter size as the 24-70 2.8L has some advantage for the minimalist agenda. Anyone using the Sigma 50mm 1.4 for video?

May 25th, 2011, 12:30 PM	#20
Bill Davis Trustee Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260 Posts: 1,538	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Since the OP indicated a "minimalist" approach - I'd heartily recommend that you consider this not just in terms of the number of gizmos you haul along or even the cost of said gizmos... Think of the WEIGHT you're going to schlepp. While the Canon L lenses in 24-70 and 70-200 will give you wonderful results and cover a superior range of focal lengths - the WEIGHT BURDEN is going to be just under 5 pounds (2260 grams) for the glass alone. In these days of up to $150 per bag in excess weight (often over 50 lbs) charges - I'm more obsessive about weight when shooting on the road than anything else. For what it's worth. __________________ Classroom editing instructor? Check out www.starteditingnow.com Turnkey editor training content including licensed training footage for classroom use.

May 25th, 2011, 09:33 PM	#21
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Well the camera arrived today so I am starting the journey. After reading the Sigma 50mm review in dpreview, I ordered one. Compared to the Canon 1.4 and 1.8, it has the best bokeh and sharpness on full frame. SInce I am not the principle photographer, I might just take the 50 and the 85 an leave the 24-70 2.8L (and it's weight) at home. @Chris, I'll get to ML eventually, my style is to learn the camera and get it to bend to my will using the stock firmware. Once I know what's lacking, then I'll trade off the ML capability with it's quirkiness. The LCDVF is a concession on that based on overwhelming feedback.

May 26th, 2011, 12:37 PM	#23
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Personally, I think if you're doing much with menus in ML, you're using it wrong. :) I like to set up ML - especially for audio - in the config file and let it roll. At most, I'll check exposure, and then it's back to standard usage. That keeps setup time quick and reliable. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 27th, 2011, 03:29 AM	#26
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Just to pile on the conversation, like others who use modern field monitors like the Marshall, false colors, peaking and 1:1 crop are features that have drastically changed the way I do exposure and critical focus on my EX1r but they aren't so portable as to come along on a cross continental journey so what's in the camera is critical. ML's false colors and the magnified areas of the display while recording are both attractive features (for me) to the AJ version of Magic Lantern. But for me, they have to work solidly and not lock up the camera. I'm still getting used to the 5Dm2. It's disappointing to not have a live exposure and focus aids while recording. Unless I'm doing something wrong, both the live histogram and the 5x/10x turn off when record is pressed. So it's left up to the eye to get focus and exposure right once recording starts. It's disappointing but in context, the FF light sensitivity and SDOF still outweigh alternatives like the VG10 which doesn't do photos and has no focus and exposure assists at all. Ditto the Sony or MFT bodies like the GH2 that are chock full of focus and exposure assist features. I'd still rather have the benefits of the FF and full compatibility with my Canon glass. But that's me. I think, at this late stage in the product's life, I wouldn't expect Canon to provide those features, ever. I think it would no doubt be a key feature in the next model and putting it into the 5DM2 would inhibit upgrades. So in that sense, ML is probably the only hope short of adding a monitor or VF like the Cineroid. All things being equal, for a minimalist approach, I'd rather have the function in firmware than a frankenstein configuration.

May 27th, 2011, 10:02 AM	#27
Greg Fiske Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Santa Ana, CA Posts: 499	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? "So in that sense, ML is probably the only hope short of adding a monitor or VF like the Cineroid" Smallhd 6dp seems like good option, although an expensive one compared to free.

June 1st, 2011, 05:43 PM	#28
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? EPILOG: I received the LCDVF and tried it immediately. I have normal middle age farsightedness ... no coke bottles ... but I cannot use it without a diopter and had to return it. YMMV

June 2nd, 2011, 03:07 PM	#29
Spiros Zaharakis Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 171	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? Try this GGS LCD Viewfinder Loupes 3X For 7D 5DII 550D 600D ab41 \| eBay UK it has diopter adjustments and it's cheap

June 8th, 2011, 10:46 AM	#30
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: What would recommend for a minimalist 5dm2 kit? That GGS LCD Viewfinder looks worth considering at about one eighth the price of a Zacuto Z-Finder. I have just ordered one from a supplier in the UK for just £42.50 (€48/$70) including delivery New LCD viewfinder For Canon 7D 5D Mark II on eBay (end time 13-Jun-11 03:21:25 BST)