Canon 5DMkII – Getting Slow Motion Shooting in 24p or 30p

[Spiro Kalogeropoulos]

I’m in the middle of trying to decide between the Canon 7D and 5DMkII for shooting video for music and also still shots that will be incorporated into the video as well. It seems to me that the 5DMkII has an advantage with regards to picture quality and light sensitivity with the full size chip, and now has the updated firmware for shooting in 24p.

I’m not very interested in the built-in flash, 19 points of auto-focus, or rapid sport shooting on the 7D. The only thing the 7D has over the 5DMkII is that it can shoot video in 60p (I guess you can also get 1080p out of the HDMI on the 7D for accurate focus through monitoring; not sure how much of a detriment it is to only get the 480i image on the monitor with the5 D). Anyway, the advantage I’ve seen most people citing about the ability to shoot in 60p is to get a quality slow motion clip by slowing it down to 30p or 24p. I’ve seen some of these videos and they look good, and I would really like to have this capability.

My question is this: If I shoot in 30p or 24p on the 5DMkII, wouldn’t I be able to stretch and resample the clip in Sony Vegas to create a slow motion image as long as I didn’t overstretch the clip and create stutter artifacts? If I can create good looking slow motion clips in Sony Vegas using a 24p or 30p video shot from the 5D then I will go with that camera. I would appreciate your responses.

Oh, one last question: Which is the Compact Flash card of choice for shooting HD video on either the 5D or 7D? Do I really need the 90MB/s cards from Sandisk or can I get the bette r? What is the optimal card speed?


Thank You.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

I’m in the middle of trying to decide between the Canon 7D and 5DMkII for shooting video for music and also still shots that will be incorporated into the video as well. It seems to me that the 5DMkII has an advantage with regards to picture quality and light sensitivity with the full size chip, and now has the updated firmware for shooting in 24p.

Better quality? Maybe. Better light gathering? Yes.

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

The only thing the 7D has over the 5DMkII is that it can shoot video in 60p

I wouldn't say that.

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

(I guess you can also get 1080p out of the HDMI on the 7D for accurate focus through monitoring; not sure how much of a detriment it is to only get the 480i image on the monitor with the5 D).

HUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE. Unless I planned on shooting in the dark all the time, this difference alone would take the 5D off the table for me.

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

Anyway, the advantage I’ve seen most people citing about the ability to shoot in 60p is to get a quality slow motion clip by slowing it down to 30p or 24p. I’ve seen some of these videos and they look good, and I would really like to have this capability.

I use the 60p all the time. I shoot a lot of sports footage...

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

My question is this: If I shoot in 30p or 24p on the 5DMkII, wouldn’t I be able to stretch and resample the clip in Sony Vegas to create a slow motion image as long as I didn’t overstretch the clip and create stutter artifacts? If I can create good looking slow motion clips in Sony Vegas using a 24p or 30p video shot from the 5D then I will go with that camera. I would appreciate your responses.

A. Vegas does a TERRIBLE job at this.
B. The difference between slowing down 30p to 24p or 60p to 24p is MASSIVE.
C. In order to get reasonable looking slow motion from the 5D you are going to need to buy something similar to Twixtor. And even then, it's no match for actually having 60p footage to work with.

[Spiro Kalogeropoulos]

Thanks for the great input. The only reason I brought up doing slow motion from 24p or 30p was because I saw this video which claims to have been shot in 30p and slowed down by stretching in Vegas (Cheesycam DIY Skater Dolly Video Slow Motion with Canon 5D Mark II CheesyCam). It doesn't look too bad, but I would imagine that slow-motion from 60p would be most ideal. I'll check out Twixtor, too.

If I was to buy the 5D I would probably pick up one of these Lilliput 7" screens (NEW! 7″ Lilliput 2010 + Battery + Shoe Mount CheesyCam) with a monitor hood, but I guess you're saying that the image output from the HDMI is simply too low at 480i to get accurate focus unless the ambient light is very low. This would be a pretty big draw back for me as well and one reason to go to the 7D. I guess another option would be to use one of the LCD viewfinders to focus off of the LCD (Evil Little LCDVF Twin vs LCDVF CheesyCam).

Also, has anyone used the Transcend Compact Flash card with success? They are quite affordable and sold through B&H with many positive reviews.

Any other input from users for the stuff from CheesyCam.com (Macro Adapter, Dollys, Motion Stabilizers, Cages, Lights, Etc). It seems like they have a great deal of usable stuff that can be found or built at very reasonable prices. I just haven't found a follow-focus at a decent price anywhere.

Thanks again.

[Perrone Ford]

I couldn't understand how they got that slow mo off the 5D until I read how they did it. Then it made sense. Most people can't have their actors move at half speed so they can get better slow motion in the camera. I've done some slow motion tests in Vegas from regular speed footage:

Like this:
YouTube - Sony Vegas Slow Motion test

And this:
YouTube - slomo 25 percent

Now I do it like this:
YouTube - FemHit Big


The 5D outputs SD externally while recording. It's not good enough for critical focus. Thus the 7D is more popular for this. The small viewfinder is the way to go but its very awkward..


I have two friends who shoot on Transcend CF cards. Neither has had any issues. Many others have. If you shoot things that can be easily re-created, maybe the risk is worth it. I shoot many 1-time events. Risk is not worth it to me...

[Chris Barcellos]

I shoot mostly narrative material, and have the 5D and the T2i. I bought the T2i to get the 60p for slow motion work. Both cameras serve their purposes. With the addition of an LCD viewfinder to either camera, I am not finding hitting focus that difficult. I also use a Marshall for a monitor when shooting with a follow focus. The output from the camera to the monitor turns out very easy to critically focus. In most narrative situation you block out the focus pulling before actually shooting anyway.

I can understand the need, if event shooting is your thing, for a higher defintion output for focusing purposes.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

The 5D outputs SD externally while recording. It's not good enough for critical focus. Thus the 7D is more popular for this. The small viewfinder is the way to go but its very awkward..

You seem to be implying that it's impossible to focus the 5D properly at all which is simply untrue. The 5D LCD screen is only SD & all those people who use loupes to enlarge those SD pixels or just viewing the LCD itself seem to manage OK. Using the Lilliput 7" monitor linked to by Spiro is great. It's just like a very large version of the on camera LCD which can be tilted to the correct viewing angle.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

You seem to be implying that it's impossible to focus the 5D properly at all which is simply untrue.

I'm implying that it is easier to do on a camera with a better output. I've shot two films on the 5D. We blocked EVERYTHING because the focus screen equated to a "rough guide" at best. The camera op was very thankful for the screen magnification though. A feature he was unaware of, but made marking shots a LOT more accurate.

[Spiro Kalogeropoulos]

Perrone,

Thanks for the You Tube video links. I’m assuming those are shot in 60p and then slowed down via “Velocity Envelopes” in Vegas? Good test. I’m probably thinking of more like a 10-15% slow down (for slight dramatic effect), instead of football replay slo-mo. So, I would imagine as long as the image isn’t moving too fast the slow mo (even if shot in 30p or 24p) should be fine (as evidenced in the beer pour video, which is really slowed down more than I would ever need).

Also, I completely understand what you are talking about with regards to it being very difficult to get ‘critical” focus in certain situations. I think it’s something each person needs to experiment with to find what is best.


Thanks to all for your comments. I may post some more should more questions pop up.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I'm implying that it is easier to do on a camera with a better output. I've shot two films on the 5D. We blocked EVERYTHING because the focus screen equated to a "rough guide" at best. The camera op was very thankful for the screen magnification though. A feature he was unaware of, but made marking shots a LOT more accurate.

Your previous statement

this difference alone would take the 5D off the table for me

seems a pretty extreme personal view i.e. to prefer the 7D over the 5DII purely because of the full res HDMI output. There are an awful lot of happy 5DII shooters (me among them) who while they might find full res HDMI output a nice to have feature certainly wouldn't prefer the 7D just because of that feature.

[Spiro Kalogeropoulos]

Thanks for the input Nigel.

I like how Chris has both the 5DMkII and the T2i. Apart from camera build quality and some other still-shot camera features, I don’t see that much difference between the T2i and the 7D. Apparently, the sensors in the two cameras are identical, if not the same. As Chris mentioned, the T2i would allow for 60p shooting allowing for smoother slow motion in post, and to a lesser extent I would have a “B” camera to work with and the ability to circumvent the 12 minute time limit for HD continuous recording. I will not be doing event shooting, mostly just shooting for music video type application, so I will have time to set-up shots.

So, if I’m not mistaken, the T2i has the same HDMI SD monitor output as the 5DMkII, but as Nigel pointed out, since both LCD screens on these cameras are SD, even using a viewfinder would provide an enlarged SD shot, which makes me think that one of those Lilliput 7” external monitors would be ideal.

It also looks like the video output is in h.264 format like the other Canons, so I would probably just need something like Cineform Neoscene to import the HD clips into Sony Vegas for proper editing. Which leads to my next question: Should I definitely look into getting the Vegas 10 Pro upgrade (I’ve currently got Vegas 8 Pro)? I’ve heard that Vegas 10 Pro has many additional features tailored towards DSLRs, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the upgrade.

I’m not sure about the T2i though. If I can do acceptable slow motion editing in Vegas from the 24p clip shot from the 5DMkII, I would not even consider the T2i.

Thanks.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

Your previous statement seems a pretty extreme personal view i.e. to prefer the 7D over the 5DII purely because of the full res HDMI output. There are an awful lot of happy 5DII shooters (me among them) who while they might find full res HDMI output a nice to have feature certainly wouldn't prefer the 7D just because of that feature.

I've shot with the 5D, the 7D, and own a T2i. I stand by my statement. But that is for *my* needs. Your needs may be different than mine, and that's ok. I don't find that the 5D brings anything extra to the table that I personally need over my T2i. For others, this is clearly not the case.

Choice is good. :)

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

So, if I’m not mistaken, the T2i has the same HDMI SD monitor output as the 5DMkII, but as Nigel pointed out, since both LCD screens on these cameras are SD, even using a viewfinder would provide an enlarged SD shot, which makes me think that one of those Lilliput 7” external monitors would be ideal.

The T2i screen is just a little sharper and has a screen shape more conducive to video. Using a 7" monitor is certainly going to yield better results than a 3" monitor. I have a 20" monitor for my needs.

5DMk2

Type
TFT color, liquid-crystal monitor

Monitor Size
3.0 in.

Pixels
Approx. 920,000 (VGA)

Coverage
Approx. 100% (viewing angle: approx. 170°)



T2i

Type
TFT color, liquid-crystal monitor

Monitor Size
3.0 in.

Pixels
Approx. 1,040,000 dots (VGA)

Coverage
Approx. 100%
Viewing angle: 160°

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

It also looks like the video output is in h.264 format like the other Canons, so I would probably just need something like Cineform Neoscene to import the HD clips into Sony Vegas for proper editing. Which leads to my next question: Should I definitely look into getting the Vegas 10 Pro upgrade (I’ve currently got Vegas 8 Pro)? I’ve heard that Vegas 10 Pro has many additional features tailored towards DSLRs, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the upgrade.

If you plan to drop h.264 onto the timeline, the upgrade is probably worth it. I only do that as an absolute last resort, so this has zero bearing on my NLE decisions.

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

I’m not sure about the T2i though. If I can do acceptable slow motion editing in Vegas from the 24p clip shot from the 5DMkII, I would not even consider the T2i.

So shoot some 24p and some 30p footage on your current camera. Then slow it down. If you're happy with that, then you have your answer. The 24p or 30p of the 5D is no different than the 24p or 30p of another camera. The slow-down motion will be identical..

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Spiro Kalogeropoulos

Thanks for the input Nigel.

.... even using a viewfinder would provide an enlarged SD shot, which makes me think that one of those Lilliput 7” external monitors would be ideal.

It also looks like the video output is in h.264 format like the other Canons, so I would probably just need something like Cineform Neoscene to import the HD clips into Sony Vegas for proper editing. Which leads to my next question: Should I definitely look into getting the Vegas 10 Pro upgrade (I’ve currently got Vegas 8 Pro)? I’ve heard that Vegas 10 Pro has many additional features tailored towards DSLRs, but I’m not sure if it’s worth the upgrade.

I’m not sure about the T2i though. If I can do acceptable slow motion editing in Vegas from the 24p clip shot from the 5DMkII, I would not even consider the T2i.

Thanks.

1. Lilliput- From specs I have seen, it looks like it has the same resolution as my Marshal HDMI monitor. Thought it is still considier SD, I have no doubt that my 7 inch Marshall improves my focusing capability with my 5D and the T2i.

2. I have Vegas 10 now, as well as NeoHD for editing in the Cineform codec. There is no doubt that Vegas 10 has changed the way I can approach my DSLR footage from the Canons. I can drop the footage directly on the time line without conversion and have a very nice editing experience. My experience with Cineform however is that it also provides benefits in the post processing arena, that still make it worthwhile to use on serious shoots.

3. The reason to use 60p is simply to avoid having to rely on doubling frames or interpolating frames when the playback rate is slowed. With 30p, in Vegas, you can designate playback at 80% and then render the clip at 24p, and you will still have full uninterpolated and unrepeated frames for each frame of output.
For slower motion, you shoot in 60p then play back at 40%, render to 24 fps, and you get the same result, as far as no frame doubling or interpolation.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I'm implying that it is easier to do on a camera with a better output. I've shot two films on the 5D. We blocked EVERYTHING because the focus screen equated to a "rough guide" at best. The camera op was very thankful for the screen magnification though. A feature he was unaware of, but made marking shots a LOT more accurate.

You forget to mention that in blocking the shots with a monitor attached, you are looking at the HD version of the shot for composing purposes, so setting your marks should be fairly accurate.

What everyone forgets too about the 7D and T2i, and now 60D frame sizes is that they are actually closer to traditional 35mm frame size than what the 5D has. As a result the 7D frame and lenses lengths approximates that format closer than the 5D in terms of expectations from lens angle of views and depth of field. I think, from that standpoint, the 5D has a more unique look to it, and some really prefer that.

The 5D also provides a capabability for much faster lenses in the normal range, unless you want to lay out some horrendous amounts of cash to get near the same capability in the 7D/t2i.

In the end, it is a name your poison thing, and it certainly is nice to have both capablities. I am happy that I do.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

You forget to mention that in blocking the shots with a monitor attached, you are looking at the HD version of the shot for composing purposes, so setting your marks should be fairly accurate.

Very true.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

What everyone forgets too about the 7D and T2i, and now 60D frame sizes is that they are actually closer to traditional 35mm frame size than what the 5D has. As a result the 7D frame and lenses lengths approximates that format closer than the 5D in terms of expectations from lens angle of views and depth of field. I think, from that standpoint, the 5D has a more unique look to it, and some really prefer that.

I'd suspect that a great many 7D, T2i, and 60D owners will never have handled cinema cameras, and thus their experience with the "look" will come from watching Hollywood movies. Yes, the 5D's look is unique in that regard which has its positives and negatives.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

The 5D also provides a capabability for much faster lenses in the normal range, unless you want to lay out some horrendous amounts of cash to get near the same capability in the 7D/t2i.

While this is true, the base lighting level on my sets obviates the 5D advantage here. What is more difficult to work around is that if I am trying to set a specific depth and a specific FOV, I need MORE light on the set since I have to stop down the 5D more than normal. Where normal would be with an S35 sized sensor. If I am trying to get the ultra-shallow DOF look, the 5D holds the advantage. I prefer not to shoot that way. I am usually around F2.8 to F5.6 on S35/APS-C.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

In the end, it is a name your poison thing, and it certainly is nice to have both capablities. I am happy that I do.

Agreed. Adding the APS-C camera to our production arsenal has made a wonderful difference. Frankly the 2/3" sensor of the Scarlet would be a GREAT benefit in a number of things I do. Where I have reasonable light, but REALLY want more depth. Primarily thinking of sports video which I shoot every week.