5D Audio after new firmware

[Mike Watson]

Just wanted to get a feel for if anyone switched back to in-cam audio after the new firmware. With something like the juicedlink, is it "broadcast" quality audio? Do you run into a lot of problems with something like the H4n, syncing, or problems rolling?

[Guy Elden]

First off, apologies for resurrecting this thread - it did seem to be the most appropriate one for me to reply to tho.

With the 2.0.7 firmware, I have actually noticed that in-camera audio is consistently out of sync with any video I take, in any mode (24p / 30p). It seems to lead the video by at least 0.2 - 0.3 seconds. I mostly use my 5DM2 for taking short clips of my family, but have been planning on using it with a recently acquired Glidecam and Rode stereo mic this coming weekend for a family reunion... I am still very much an amateur at video, but have been planning to shoot lots of short clips, and then use Premiere CS4 to put all the footage together again. I suppose it isn't too much of a hassle to sync the audio in post, but given that I don't plan on using an external recorder, I was hoping to avoid that step altogether.

I may try going back to 2.0.4 tonight to see if that fixes things.

[Chris Barcellos]

First question is what are you playing back on. Is this happening when you play back on camera. Otherwise, if it is on your editing timeline, or computer player, it may be your system is not able to keep up.

Many of us edit with an intermediate codec like Cineform's NeoScene to remedy this. Or you can use a proxy like Epic.

As to quality of recording, if you keep your level at one or two clicks above zero for the camera setting then use a good preamp output like the Juiced Link or a field mixer, you will get pretty nice sound.

For a major project, double system sound may be in order, and syching with PluralEyes, seems like the ticket. !!

[Dan Brockett]

While I agree with Chris in general, specifically, the 5D MKII is not a very good sounding recorder. It shouldn't be, it is a still camera that happens to shoot video. No professional audio interface, no phantom, meters that are basically useless because you cannot see them or ride gain while actually shooting, only in standby mode. I have been using the Juicedlink DT-454 and while it in itself sounds great, the recording capability of the 5D MKII is a bit thin. The sound is thin and lacks dynamic range. In my estimation, it is usable for clean dialog where you can fill out the sound in post with EQ and compression but for music or ambient, the 5D MKII leaves me wanting as far as audio quality.

Just something you should be aware of. It doesn't sound horrible, but it doesn't sound great either. If you are serious about sound, you buy a Sound Devices recorder. If you are a bit more serious than in-camera sound, there is the Zoom H4N as well as several others by Marantz, Tascam, Sony and a load of others but none of the sub-$1,000.00 recorders are in the same league as even the cheapest Sound Devices recorder.

Dan

[Daniel Kohl]

Dan's of course right.

But the discussion about the quality of the 5D2's audio recording is pretty clear. The 5D2 should not really be used as an audio recording device. But, the question remains; how can we get the best possible audio quality from the sub-optimal recording capabilities of the 5D2?

.....

Hi Chris,

I have noticed significant hiss when recording in-camera using a Beachtek DXA-6. I don't remember that hiss being there while using ML and FW 1.1.0 (that was a while ago). I gather that you don't have issues with hiss, using the set-up you described in your last post.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

As to quality of recording, if you keep your level at one or two clicks above zero for the camera setting then use a good preamp output like the Juiced Link or a field mixer, you will get pretty nice sound.

By the way, do you happen to have FW 1.0.4 to share? I believe you were kind enough to offer to send me 1.1.0 way back when. I would like to do some test with ML, but since my new 5D2 was delivered with FW 1.0.7, I have no way of reverting.

Cheers,

DK

[Jon Fairhurst]

> "how can we get the best possible audio quality from the sub-optimal recording capabilities of the 5D2?"

Easy. Use Magic Lantern and a high quality preamp with gain, such as a juicedLink. The noise level is especially low for this setup.

Just be aware that the 5D2 has a high pass filter, so you won't get much bass. This is fine for dialog, and is good for rejecting wind, handling noise, and plosives. Just don't record music and expect a full, deep sound.

This works well for narrative film, where dialog is the only live sound required. All other sounds are added in post.

[Guy Elden]

Hi all, thanks for the replies!

I agree that recording audio with the 5DM2 is not going to produce very clean results - even with the external mic + windscreen attached, there is a good bit of high freq hiss when the levels are turned up enough to actually get decent sound recorded on the camera. My main reason for wanting to stick with the 5D as the sound conduit though is mainly for convenience, and also workflow. I find that, at least when taking video clips of my kids, I don't pay as close attention to settings. I tried using an external Roland digital recorder that my wife uses for her voice lessons, and while that has a much cleaner sound, it is useless to me if I forget to hit the record button. (which is exactly what happened a few times, and why I decided it wasn't worth continuing to pursue that option).

I think the ideal solution would be to attach a recorder to the camera somehow (or even perhaps to the Glidecam), but I have to say, after this first real test over the weekend, that GC is _heavy_, and that is just with the 5D + 24-70L + Rode. I am going to have to try my 28mm 1.8 next time, because even with the arm brace, it is just too much to be carrying around for more than a few minutes. Any external audio solution would have to be as light as possible, and placed in such a way that it is apparent that it is recording, so that a double-check could be made before starting to roll the video through the 5D (I'm fine with syncing things up in post).

Anyway, there's still plenty for me to learn, but I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in experiencing "issues" with the on-board 5DM2 audio!

[Bill Pryor]

The Zoom H4N is lightweight and has a 1/4" threaded socket on the bottom, so you can get a hotshoe adapter and attach it to the hotshoe.

It's fairly easy to screw up on the zoom because you push the record button once and it doesn't record. It only goes on standby. Press a second time to record. So you have to be careful and make sure the numbers are running. I've tried to develop the habit of, after hitting stop, also hitting the record button again, so when I'm ready to roll the next time all it will take is one push. Other than that it's a great little device for the money.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Guy Elden

I agree that recording audio with the 5DM2 is not going to produce very clean results - even with the external mic + windscreen attached, there is a good bit of high freq hiss when the levels are turned up enough to actually get decent sound recorded on the camera.

That's not necessarily the case.

If you use a juicedLink CX211, CX231, or DT454 as the preamp - or a SoundDevices preamp with adapters and the correct pad, the results can be pretty clean. If you use Magic Lantern firmware, the results will be even cleaner.

With that setup, there are two issues: you can overdo the gain and end up with some distortion (so avoid that), and there is a high-pass-filter in the 5D2 that reduces the bass. This is great for dialog on a windy day. It's not good for recording full range music. That said, most of us are recording dialog.

Check this out:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...-complete.html

[James Huenergardt]

I have a friend who owns the Tascam DR-100 and is running the headphones out to the 5D and monitoring off the line out.

He does this to have a 'backup' recording on the Tascam as he's actually recording audio as well.

Anyone tried this type of thing?

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Daniel Kohl

Dan's of course right.

But the discussion about the quality of the 5D2's audio recording is pretty clear. The 5D2 should not really be used as an audio recording device. But, the question remains; how can we get the best possible audio quality from the sub-optimal recording capabilities of the 5D2?

.....

Hi Chris,

I have noticed significant hiss when recording in-camera using a Beachtek DXA-6. I don't remember that hiss being there while using ML and FW 1.1.0 (that was a while ago). I gather that you don't have issues with hiss, using the set-up you described in your last post.



By the way, do you happen to have FW 1.0.4 to share? I believe you were kind enough to offer to send me 1.1.0 way back when. I would like to do some test with ML, but since my new 5D2 was delivered with FW 1.0.7, I have no way of reverting.

Cheers,

DK

Dan Kohl, sorry I missed this post earlier. Send me a PM and I can get Firmware 2.04 (that is correct designation as I recall) to you.

As to the DXA-6, it is not the same as the Juiced Link. The juiced link has actual preamps on board, and from what I can tell on specs on the DXA-6, its not doing anything with the signal. It does provide phantom power, but that is all.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by James Huenergardt

I have a friend who owns the Tascam DR-100 and is running the headphones out to the 5D and monitoring off the line out.

He does this to have a 'backup' recording on the Tascam as he's actually recording audio as well.

Anyone tried this type of thing?

I use a Tascam DR-07, mated with my ENG44 mixer to record double system. I feed the DR-07 with the line out mini cable, and the DR-o7 is Velcroed to the ENG44. Before the DR-07, I used the a HIMD recorder for good results.

With the 5D running Magic Lantern, recently I also fed out to the camera via xlr cable to my lowly Beachtec DXA-4. As I recall, I set the ML sound levels at Analog 10, and the digital at 0db. I use the 1 k tone regularly during the shoot to check levels settings.

It turned out by that method, that I used the in camera sound for ninety percent of the 9 minute film we shot over a two day period.

[Daniel Wilson]

Regarding the 1k tone calibration, does anybody have a link to a tutorial on how to do this? I'm running a JuicedLink with ML at those same settings of digital level 0 and analog level 10. This is getting me relatively clean audio for dialog, but I've always wanted to calibrate it all properly using a 1kHz tone. I'm just not sure exactly where the tone should come from, where it should go and at which point I analyse or adjust it.

Thanks,
Dan

[Olof Ekbergh]

Typically the 1KHZ tone is from a field mixer like a Shure 367, or similar. Many Cameras also produce "tone" and bars.

If you don't have a way of producing tone in the field, set your average level to where tone should be and make sure the loudest sound does not reach 0DB (digital) or +5 (analog).

In analog recording you set your recording device at 0DB with tone. Max peak should be +5DB max in general. Analog is a little more tolerant than digital recording.

In digital recording tone is generally set to -18DB in pro gear this gives you more head room, I usually don't want to see max peak higher than -5DB in digital recording. If digital goes over 0DB it is very ugly.

Tone and bars are always included when delivering video to a TV station so that the engineer can calibrate the video and audio signal for broadcast.