DvSLRs and RED Scarlet

Dan Brockett · November 1st, 2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

You are aware that there is Scarlet video on the web already right? And that a functioning prototype has already made it's debut. No doubt it's changing somewhat, but the video from that camera was STUNNING. Even at $10k it was stunning.

Yes, I saw it the day it came out.

Can I buy one? Can I even get a review copy for HD Video Pro? Price? Exact specs? Delivery dates? Didn't think so. Prototype clips with no specs or supporting evidence of what it was even shot on or how don't impress me much. Are we talking about the lizard clip? I've shot with the RED One and it is a total PITA for my work flow and typical projects.

I am sure that Scarlet will be fine but I am not very excited about it. It will be interesting to see if the camera is successful.

Dan

Charles Papert · November 1st, 2009, 11:17 PM

Agreed, Dan. It's tricky to be able to commit to a camera (or any technology, really) when one doesn't know what the full ramifications of the workflow will be. When one's reputation and livelihood is on the line, i.e. being able to deliver to clients, it's foolhardy to gamble on unknown quantities. It used to be that being an early adopter meant getting involved with tech when it first became available; now that means raising a rally flag as soon as it is announced.

Many cameras are capable of stunning imagery (including ones considered all but obsolete by those obsessed by the bleeding edge). If the process of acquiring and working with those images is too cumbersome, it may not be worth it for those who consider their time to be equivalent to money. I've slowly come around to the Canon DSLR's but am well aware of the challenges presented in both acquisition and post phases that these cameras represent. I've used RED for a number of projects but have also had issues on the post side.

Brian Luce · November 2nd, 2009, 01:06 AM

I've seen the lizard shot. It's nice. But what version of Scarlet was it? Maybe it was the version that existed for one day, a version that was a Red ONE clone.

Personally I don't think Red a has any interest in the prosumer market. They made a killing with R1, all the talk is of Epic. Follow the money. The Scarlet is an afterthought.

Brian Drysdale · November 2nd, 2009, 04:05 AM

Given that RED have always said they make professional cameras, the most that can be said is that they're going for the higher end of the prosumer market with the 2/3" range. That also should also meet the requirements of the broadcast market (with increasingly tighter budgets) for other than fast turn around productions - all that rendering could cause problems with tight post production schedules.

To date there have been around 7000 RED One cameras sold, so we're not talking a mass market product. They could be hoping for cross over into the stills market with the 35mm sensor Scarlet, but price wise it's going to be more for the high end photographers who need a fast motor drive.

I expect the way it'll work out is that the stills camera manufacturers will met the demand for 35mm sensors for those shooting for the web and DVD, whilst RED will be working in the band above that, offering good value products for professionals working in other areas and hobbyists with deep pockets. It could be an aspirational product, but there's nothing new in that, but there nothing to stop someone in the future buying a used RED when the depreciation has done its bit. You don't need the latest model of camera to make your own film and the picture quality from a RED will be good for many years.

Kevin Shaw · November 2nd, 2009, 04:51 AM

Regarding where Red fits into the historical timeline, note that HDV 1080i at a price under $5k predates Red One by almost 3 years, followed by the Panasonic HVX200, which got Sony to develop the EX1. Red's influence may have helped inspire the DSLR video trend, but has yet to affect the mainstream video camera market.

Brian Drysdale · November 2nd, 2009, 08:52 AM

RED have had an influence on the higher end cameras, although they haven't replaced the higher end cameras the way people were talking about; the post workflow with RAW isn't right for everyone. The lower end new Arri digital cameras appears to be priced to compete with the upcoming Epic.

At the lower end, 2/3" Scarlet should be in the EX3 market area. However, it mightn't be right for everyone and the RED ergonomics have been a weakness to date, but they seem to have been working at that.

The video SDLRs seem to be a bigger problem for the 35mm adapter market than the more traditional video cameras.

Perrone Ford · November 2nd, 2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

Can I buy one? Can I even get a review copy for HD Video Pro? Price? Exact specs? Delivery dates? Didn't think so. Prototype clips with no specs or supporting evidence of what it was even shot on or how don't impress me much. Are we talking about the lizard clip? I've shot with the RED One and it is a total PITA for my work flow and typical projects.

I am sure that Scarlet will be fine but I am not very excited about it. It will be interesting to see if the camera is successful.

Completely understand...

I see the RED workflow much like film. And the small amount of footage I've played with, I've worked with much as I suspect I would with film. Hasn't been easy on the PC side.

I'm no RED fan boy, and I've never, ever, thought Scarlet would come in anywhere near $3k. My guess was EX1-EX3 range and it appears that might be closer to the truth.

Not everyone can commit to a flim-like workflow, and for those people, the RED products seem to be all wrong. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, as people need to use what is appropriate to them. I absolutely LOVE my EX1 workflow as I can run live with it and have, I can do fast turnaround with native codec editing, I can take my time and grade footage, etc. Clearly, I can't do that with 3k or 4k, flat footage.

What I don't understand is why people are angry with RED. They are a tiny company trying to make some cool cameras. What should that bring about so much anger in folks?

Jon Fairhurst · November 2nd, 2009, 11:34 AM

I seem to remember some chatter that 1080p recording will be available. If so, that should help the workflow for people who don't want to grade xK RAW.

And I think the people who are the most bummed about RED are those who bought into the 3K for $3k budget dream, have been defending the RED concept against DvSLRs, and are now realizing that their dream - based on RED marketing announcements - will not come true. Many of us saw things slip away with the modular announcement. Modular never makes things cheaper - and the modules will be priced for EPIC users.

Also, the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT ON OCTOBER 30TH (except for you lot in the peanut gallery) snubbed the $3k scarletuser.net followers.

You never know. At the end of the month, RED might have an amazing announcement for the $3k crowd. We will see...

Chris Hurd · November 2nd, 2009, 11:38 AM

The generalization that "people are angry at RED" is inaccurate. One look at their forum reveals about 225 posts in four threads expressing discontentment with RED's Oct. 30th announcement, and a majority of those gripes are coming from folks who are upset that they didn't buy in early enough to get the same deal being offered to long-time RED One owners:

The Oct 29th cut-off - REDUSER.net
Rants - REDUSER.net
More Rants - REDUSER.net
Rant2 - REDUSER.net

...but these people are massively outweighed almost 4 to 1 by responses from those who approve and support that announcement:

October 30th Announcement Feedback - REDUSER.net

And regarding Scarlet, from the day it was first announced, it was *never* intended for any market other than high-end professionals... I think there has been some deep-rooted confusion over the misconception that RED was moving beyond high-end digital cinema with Scarlet, and that's been part of the problem for awhile. See this:

REDUSER.net - View Single Post - Rants

I really don't want DV Info Net to be used as a platform to bash any camera company (that's clearly beyond the scope I have established for this site, which is to be a technical and creative resource for digital video -- and nothing more). Please take those feelings elsewhere, preferably to self-published blogs, etc., as that's not at all what this site is about. Thanks in advance,

Jon Fairhurst · November 2nd, 2009, 12:13 PM

I agree Chris. I have no desire to bash RED. I want them to succeed. And I hope to rent their stuff at some point in the not-so-distant future.

And, I'd agree that anger is not the sentiment. There is disillusionment though, with a number of people "bailing". Frankly, many should have "bailed" long ago, purchased something, and started shooting, rather than waiting around. Once a final product and a hard ship date and price are announced, that will be another story.

Which brings me back to my premise: the $3k crowd should look at a DvSLR for everyday use, building up equipment, lenses, and skills. And Scarlet has the potential to be a great rental for that special project. With no aliasing, jello, and the ability to grade RAW, it still holds lots of promise.

Dan Brockett · November 2nd, 2009, 01:04 PM

No prob Chris, I will keep my feelings about RED's marketing/PR strategy to myself. I am not against the company at all, I interviewed Ted for a story recently and I like that they have really shaken up the industry. I am glad that there is a RED company out there, I think that they are a very healthy force in the market, even if I don't always agree with their strategy.

I wish them well, and hopefully I will own one of their cameras someday.

Dan

Chris Hurd · November 2nd, 2009, 01:14 PM

Many thanks, Dan -- marketing strategy is one thing, an actual product is another... I have long endeavored to keep the focus around here firmly upon the products themselves. Much appreciated,

Jon Fairhurst · November 5th, 2009, 11:54 AM

What a difference a few days makes.

There's a photo of the fixed lens over a scarletuser, and those who really want a high quality 2/3" RAW cam are again very optimistic. They accept that it will no longer be $3k and are hopeful for a quick shipping schedule. The whole mood has shifted.

BTW, the lens will support electronic control. I assume that this means a motorized zoom. I'm not sure about OIS or the balance between mechanical and electronic focus.

Of course, the real news won't come until the end of the month, when RED makes some more official announcements.

Best wishes to the RED development teams.

Jon Fairhurst · November 30th, 2009, 06:53 PM

FWIW, the latest Scarlet announcement is now up.

No big surprises, really (concerning Scarlet anyway; RedRay Pro is to be released surprisingly soon.) Nothing here changes my view on owning the 5D and renting a Scarlet S35 or FF35 for big, well-scheduled projects.

Owning a Fixed 2/3 would be excellent for a lot of unscripted, unplanned documentary work. For narrative, I like the options that a bigger sensor offers; hence, my 5D2 is a keeper.

Mike Calla · November 30th, 2009, 09:28 PM

I like RED, i like the "small company, big ideas" attitude. Unfortunately, the hardware/workflow is out of my budget at this time in my/my company's life.

I like Canon for simply doing what it has done.

BUT
I'd like them to stop selling me still cameras though. Sorry i don't shoot stills! I shoot video!

How much for the 7D without all the stills bells and whistles??

November 1st, 2009, 11:17 PM	#32
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Agreed, Dan. It's tricky to be able to commit to a camera (or any technology, really) when one doesn't know what the full ramifications of the workflow will be. When one's reputation and livelihood is on the line, i.e. being able to deliver to clients, it's foolhardy to gamble on unknown quantities. It used to be that being an early adopter meant getting involved with tech when it first became available; now that means raising a rally flag as soon as it is announced. Many cameras are capable of stunning imagery (including ones considered all but obsolete by those obsessed by the bleeding edge). If the process of acquiring and working with those images is too cumbersome, it may not be worth it for those who consider their time to be equivalent to money. I've slowly come around to the Canon DSLR's but am well aware of the challenges presented in both acquisition and post phases that these cameras represent. I've used RED for a number of projects but have also had issues on the post side. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

November 2nd, 2009, 11:34 AM	#38
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I seem to remember some chatter that 1080p recording will be available. If so, that should help the workflow for people who don't want to grade xK RAW. And I think the people who are the most bummed about RED are those who bought into the 3K for $3k budget dream, have been defending the RED concept against DvSLRs, and are now realizing that their dream - based on RED marketing announcements - will not come true. Many of us saw things slip away with the modular announcement. Modular never makes things cheaper - and the modules will be priced for EPIC users. Also, the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT ON OCTOBER 30TH (except for you lot in the peanut gallery) snubbed the $3k scarletuser.net followers. You never know. At the end of the month, RED might have an amazing announcement for the $3k crowd. We will see... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

November 2nd, 2009, 11:38 AM	#39
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	The generalization that "people are angry at RED" is inaccurate. One look at their forum reveals about 225 posts in four threads expressing discontentment with RED's Oct. 30th announcement, and a majority of those gripes are coming from folks who are upset that they didn't buy in early enough to get the same deal being offered to long-time RED One owners: The Oct 29th cut-off - REDUSER.net Rants - REDUSER.net More Rants - REDUSER.net Rant2 - REDUSER.net ...but these people are massively outweighed almost 4 to 1 by responses from those who approve and support that announcement: October 30th Announcement Feedback - REDUSER.net And regarding Scarlet, from the day it was first announced, it was never intended for any market other than high-end professionals... I think there has been some deep-rooted confusion over the misconception that RED was moving beyond high-end digital cinema with Scarlet, and that's been part of the problem for awhile. See this: REDUSER.net - View Single Post - Rants I really don't want DV Info Net to be used as a platform to bash any camera company (that's clearly beyond the scope I have established for this site, which is to be a technical and creative resource for digital video -- and nothing more). Please take those feelings elsewhere, preferably to self-published blogs, etc., as that's not at all what this site is about. Thanks in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 2nd, 2009, 12:13 PM	#40
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I agree Chris. I have no desire to bash RED. I want them to succeed. And I hope to rent their stuff at some point in the not-so-distant future. And, I'd agree that anger is not the sentiment. There is disillusionment though, with a number of people "bailing". Frankly, many should have "bailed" long ago, purchased something, and started shooting, rather than waiting around. Once a final product and a hard ship date and price are announced, that will be another story. Which brings me back to my premise: the $3k crowd should look at a DvSLR for everyday use, building up equipment, lenses, and skills. And Scarlet has the potential to be a great rental for that special project. With no aliasing, jello, and the ability to grade RAW, it still holds lots of promise. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

November 2nd, 2009, 01:14 PM	#42
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Many thanks, Dan -- marketing strategy is one thing, an actual product is another... I have long endeavored to keep the focus around here firmly upon the products themselves. Much appreciated, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 2nd, 2009, 01:06 AM	#33
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	I've seen the lizard shot. It's nice. But what version of Scarlet was it? Maybe it was the version that existed for one day, a version that was a Red ONE clone. Personally I don't think Red a has any interest in the prosumer market. They made a killing with R1, all the talk is of Epic. Follow the money. The Scarlet is an afterthought.

November 2nd, 2009, 04:05 AM	#34
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Given that RED have always said they make professional cameras, the most that can be said is that they're going for the higher end of the prosumer market with the 2/3" range. That also should also meet the requirements of the broadcast market (with increasingly tighter budgets) for other than fast turn around productions - all that rendering could cause problems with tight post production schedules. To date there have been around 7000 RED One cameras sold, so we're not talking a mass market product. They could be hoping for cross over into the stills market with the 35mm sensor Scarlet, but price wise it's going to be more for the high end photographers who need a fast motor drive. I expect the way it'll work out is that the stills camera manufacturers will met the demand for 35mm sensors for those shooting for the web and DVD, whilst RED will be working in the band above that, offering good value products for professionals working in other areas and hobbyists with deep pockets. It could be an aspirational product, but there's nothing new in that, but there nothing to stop someone in the future buying a used RED when the depreciation has done its bit. You don't need the latest model of camera to make your own film and the picture quality from a RED will be good for many years.

November 2nd, 2009, 04:51 AM	#35
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Regarding where Red fits into the historical timeline, note that HDV 1080i at a price under $5k predates Red One by almost 3 years, followed by the Panasonic HVX200, which got Sony to develop the EX1. Red's influence may have helped inspire the DSLR video trend, but has yet to affect the mainstream video camera market.

November 2nd, 2009, 08:52 AM	#36
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	RED have had an influence on the higher end cameras, although they haven't replaced the higher end cameras the way people were talking about; the post workflow with RAW isn't right for everyone. The lower end new Arri digital cameras appears to be priced to compete with the upcoming Epic. At the lower end, 2/3" Scarlet should be in the EX3 market area. However, it mightn't be right for everyone and the RED ergonomics have been a weakness to date, but they seem to have been working at that. The video SDLRs seem to be a bigger problem for the 35mm adapter market than the more traditional video cameras.

November 2nd, 2009, 01:04 PM	#41
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	No prob Chris, I will keep my feelings about RED's marketing/PR strategy to myself. I am not against the company at all, I interviewed Ted for a story recently and I like that they have really shaken up the industry. I am glad that there is a RED company out there, I think that they are a very healthy force in the market, even if I don't always agree with their strategy. I wish them well, and hopefully I will own one of their cameras someday. Dan

November 5th, 2009, 11:54 AM	#43
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	What a difference a few days makes. There's a photo of the fixed lens over a scarletuser, and those who really want a high quality 2/3" RAW cam are again very optimistic. They accept that it will no longer be $3k and are hopeful for a quick shipping schedule. The whole mood has shifted. BTW, the lens will support electronic control. I assume that this means a motorized zoom. I'm not sure about OIS or the balance between mechanical and electronic focus. Of course, the real news won't come until the end of the month, when RED makes some more official announcements. Best wishes to the RED development teams. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

November 30th, 2009, 06:53 PM	#44
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	FWIW, the latest Scarlet announcement is now up. No big surprises, really (concerning Scarlet anyway; RedRay Pro is to be released surprisingly soon.) Nothing here changes my view on owning the 5D and renting a Scarlet S35 or FF35 for big, well-scheduled projects. Owning a Fixed 2/3 would be excellent for a lot of unscripted, unplanned documentary work. For narrative, I like the options that a bigger sensor offers; hence, my 5D2 is a keeper. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

November 30th, 2009, 09:28 PM	#45
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	I like RED, i like the "small company, big ideas" attitude. Unfortunately, the hardware/workflow is out of my budget at this time in my/my company's life. I like Canon for simply doing what it has done. BUT I'd like them to stop selling me still cameras though. Sorry i don't shoot stills! I shoot video! How much for the 7D without all the stills bells and whistles?? __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com