Assessment of the 5D2 by the BBC (Alan Roberts) at DVinfo.net

Daniel Browning · September 3rd, 2009, 10:26 PM

Alan Roberts assessed the performance of the 5D2 (and many other cameras) for the BBC. Their official web site is not updated yet, but I have been allowed to host the white paper here:

BBC R&D White Paper WHP034 - Alan Roberts

A zone plate was used to measure the aliasing of the 5D2:

Here is what the zone plate is supposed to look like:

The conclusion is "pictures with aliasing at the levels seen here are not acceptable as HDTV."

Zsolt Gordos · September 3rd, 2009, 10:56 PM

This one sux.

Daniel Browning · September 3rd, 2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

This one sux.

No, the 5D2 does not "sux". I can understand that the artifacts and image quality problems on the 5D2 are disgusting to you, but kindly remember that there are plenty of people who don't even notice those things.

For every one person like you, who hates aliasing and other artifacts, there are a thousand who don't care, and are happy to have aliasing and compression artifacts if it means gaining thin DOF.

That's why I'm happy to continue using my 5D2 for clients that don't care about things like resolution, aliasing artifacts, compression artifacts, etc. The last wedding I shot was completely 5D2. We brought two XH-A1, but never ended up even touching them.

Don't let this White Paper discourage you from buying the 5D2. There are many projects where the 5D2's advantages (thin DOF, low light, lenses, size) outweigh its terrible image quality problems.

Tom Daigon · September 3rd, 2009, 11:50 PM

Thank you for speaking up Daniel.

Steve Phillipps · September 4th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Thanks Daniel, and for others may be interested in the Panasonic HPX301 details from your site too http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...nic_HPX301.pdf
Steve

Olivier Depaep · September 4th, 2009, 02:03 AM

It also says the test was done using a preproduction model, any chance we might get an update?

Daniel Browning · September 4th, 2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier Depaep

It also says the test was done using a preproduction model, any chance we might get an update?

I've shot a sine zone plate with a production 5D2 (Dec 08) myself and I got the same result as Alan. (Graeme Nattress analyzed the zone plate, too.) I don't think anything changed from his preproduction model to the production model.

Mike Demmers · September 4th, 2009, 02:30 AM

This is very interesting and useful information, particularly if you read some of the other camera assessments.

I hope Canon sees this, as the tester seems to suggest some of the problems have fairly simple solutions.

The small Canon (video) cameras actually come out looking pretty good next to some pro cameras costing 10 times as much.

-Mike

Jon Fairhurst · September 4th, 2009, 10:15 AM

This is another case of "know your tools."

Yes, the 5D2 aliases - especially when you have high frequencies in the vertical dimension.

Doing a documentary on fine lace? Choose a different camera. Showing images of people's faces with the background out of focus? Choose the 5D2.

The "Beeb" is notorious for testing cameras and giving a pass/fail grade. This makes it easier for their programming people to accept/deny content without having to manually check the technical quality. Given that the 5D2 doesn't do 25p, it's no surprise that they would want to reject it.

If shooting for the Beeb, choose a different camera. If shooting a 5D2 for yourself, try to avoid fine patterns of high contrast. And stabilize the thing to avoid rolling shutter artifacts. And don't stare at the sun...

BTW, if you can film an image of Princess Diana's ghost, the neither the Beeb nor any other news channel on the planet would care if it was shot on your kid's cell phone...

Gary Nattrass · September 4th, 2009, 10:24 AM

I have a lot of respect for Alan and he assisted me with my choice of the HPX301 as he sent me the BBC test results.

I am sure the canon is a superb stills camera but for broadcast video content we have certain rules, judging by the amount of bad pictures and artefacts that are present on numerous tv channels here in the UK it is more important than ever that standards for HD are kept up.

Mike Hannon · September 4th, 2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

The conclusion is "pictures with aliasing at the levels seen here are not acceptable as HDTV."

Logically, the above statement does not preclude pictures without aliasing. How many times have you seen that particular test chart on your favourite TV programme?

It would be a shame (for anyone) to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Having said that, I haven't read the white paper and perhaps there are other issues (aside from 30p).

If somebody should slip the BBC some good work shot on the 5D2, would they spot it?

If so, stick to ITV - the future [cringe]!

Mark Moreve · September 4th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Very interesting White Paper. Yes I agree if you are shooting for the BBC ( Which I do about 3-4 days a week) then the 5d2 is not the camera for most programming. But I have just completed a 90 min feature film on one which is being graded at the Mill & they have already seen the rushes & think they look superb ! That is neither here nor there though & it does not get away from the point that the 5d2 creates great images.
It's funny though as the BBC will accept footage shot on a PD170 or a Z1 & to the best of my belief the 5d2 is better quality than both of those cameras.
I believe that the 5d2 definatley has it's place in film & documentary making and as somebody has already mentioned if you gave them a breaking news story shot on the camera I'd eat my hat if they didn't accept it!

Daniel Lipats · September 4th, 2009, 02:36 PM

I agree with Jon, know your tools.

Personally, I have had success removing aliasing by using Caprock Anti-Moire filters. They reduce the aliasing/moire without making any noticeable compromise on resolution. I can't completely get rid of the problem, but I can make it disappear in the rare occasions where it may be noticeable.

I do think it's ridiculous to judge a cameras capabilities on this particular test, which does not clearly reflect the cameras performance in practice. As filmmakers we don't spend our time shooting resolution charts, how can this alone possibly represent our tools?

Brian Drysdale · September 4th, 2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Moreve

It's funny though as the BBC will accept footage shot on a PD170 or a Z1 & to the best of my belief the 5d2 is better quality than both of those cameras.
I believe that the 5d2 definatley has it's place in film & documentary making and as somebody has already mentioned if you gave them a breaking news story shot on the camera I'd eat my hat if they didn't accept it!

The BBC will accept PD 170 & Z1 for SD programmes and described as SD in their HD programme guidelines. The video feature seems have been fitted to the 5d2 for shooting news for the web by news stills photographers. Regardless of this, on an important news story any image is acceptable, including mobile phone cameras, so I wouldn't use that as claiming anything.

People have to do their own tests and decide if the camera is appropriate for the film they're making. For some people it will be fine, while for others the flaws will be unacceptable.

Mark Moreve · September 4th, 2009, 03:11 PM

I believe the Z1 is an HDV camera that can shoot dvcam does this mean that the BBC doesn't accept it as HD even in it's HDV mode? Is that what you are saying?

September 3rd, 2009, 10:26 PM	#1
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	Assessment of the 5D2 by the BBC (Alan Roberts) Alan Roberts assessed the performance of the 5D2 (and many other cameras) for the BBC. Their official web site is not updated yet, but I have been allowed to host the white paper here: BBC R&D White Paper WHP034 - Alan Roberts A zone plate was used to measure the aliasing of the 5D2: Here is what the zone plate is supposed to look like: The conclusion is "pictures with aliasing at the levels seen here are not acceptable as HDTV."

September 3rd, 2009, 10:56 PM	#2
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	This one sux. __________________ Sony XDCAM EX1r, Canon 5DMkII, Røde NTG2, Røde NT1000, Røde Stereo Videomic, Sachtler DV6 SB on Gitzo 1325V, Steadicam Merlin, Omnitracker, Hackintosh 3.5Ghz Quad 8Gb RAM

September 4th, 2009, 02:03 AM	#6
Olivier Depaep Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Poole, Dorset (UK) Posts: 56	It also says the test was done using a preproduction model, any chance we might get an update? __________________ my website: http://www.7876.co.uk on vimeo: http:www.vimeo.com/ollie

September 4th, 2009, 10:15 AM	#9
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	This is another case of "know your tools." Yes, the 5D2 aliases - especially when you have high frequencies in the vertical dimension. Doing a documentary on fine lace? Choose a different camera. Showing images of people's faces with the background out of focus? Choose the 5D2. The "Beeb" is notorious for testing cameras and giving a pass/fail grade. This makes it easier for their programming people to accept/deny content without having to manually check the technical quality. Given that the 5D2 doesn't do 25p, it's no surprise that they would want to reject it. If shooting for the Beeb, choose a different camera. If shooting a 5D2 for yourself, try to avoid fine patterns of high contrast. And stabilize the thing to avoid rolling shutter artifacts. And don't stare at the sun... BTW, if you can film an image of Princess Diana's ghost, the neither the Beeb nor any other news channel on the planet would care if it was shot on your kid's cell phone... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

September 4th, 2009, 10:24 AM	#10
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	I have a lot of respect for Alan and he assisted me with my choice of the HPX301 as he sent me the BBC test results. I am sure the canon is a superb stills camera but for broadcast video content we have certain rules, judging by the amount of bad pictures and artefacts that are present on numerous tv channels here in the UK it is more important than ever that standards for HD are kept up. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

September 3rd, 2009, 11:50 PM	#4
Tom Daigon Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 170	Thank you for speaking up Daniel.

September 4th, 2009, 01:03 AM	#5
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Thanks Daniel, and for others may be interested in the Panasonic HPX301 details from your site too http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...nic_HPX301.pdf Steve

September 4th, 2009, 02:30 AM	#8
Mike Demmers Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Portland OR Posts: 159	This is very interesting and useful information, particularly if you read some of the other camera assessments. I hope Canon sees this, as the tester seems to suggest some of the problems have fairly simple solutions. The small Canon (video) cameras actually come out looking pretty good next to some pro cameras costing 10 times as much. -Mike

September 4th, 2009, 02:23 PM	#12
Mark Moreve Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: london Posts: 125	Very interesting White Paper. Yes I agree if you are shooting for the BBC ( Which I do about 3-4 days a week) then the 5d2 is not the camera for most programming. But I have just completed a 90 min feature film on one which is being graded at the Mill & they have already seen the rushes & think they look superb ! That is neither here nor there though & it does not get away from the point that the 5d2 creates great images. It's funny though as the BBC will accept footage shot on a PD170 or a Z1 & to the best of my belief the 5d2 is better quality than both of those cameras. I believe that the 5d2 definatley has it's place in film & documentary making and as somebody has already mentioned if you gave them a breaking news story shot on the camera I'd eat my hat if they didn't accept it!

September 4th, 2009, 02:36 PM	#13
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I agree with Jon, know your tools. Personally, I have had success removing aliasing by using Caprock Anti-Moire filters. They reduce the aliasing/moire without making any noticeable compromise on resolution. I can't completely get rid of the problem, but I can make it disappear in the rare occasions where it may be noticeable. I do think it's ridiculous to judge a cameras capabilities on this particular test, which does not clearly reflect the cameras performance in practice. As filmmakers we don't spend our time shooting resolution charts, how can this alone possibly represent our tools?

September 4th, 2009, 03:11 PM	#15
Mark Moreve Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: london Posts: 125	I believe the Z1 is an HDV camera that can shoot dvcam does this mean that the BBC doesn't accept it as HD even in it's HDV mode? Is that what you are saying?