25p users unite! at DVinfo.net

Xavier Plagaro · August 20th, 2009, 12:51 AM

<MODE ON: Sorry for the rant!>

Canon has presented several digital cameras with HD video recording, always at 30fps. Canon demonstrates once again that it doesn't care at all about 25fps users. And I keep reading thread over thread of people asking how to convert from 30p>25p.

There is just one good way to end with 25p. To buy a camcorder/camera that supports fully 25p.

Stop buying the wrong Canon product for your application, maybe one day they will realize it and start thinking about US (not only about USA).

People will tell me they don't care about PAL (even if we are a market as large as, if not bigger), that in Europe we have taxes if a camera records video (cameras cost a lot more anyway, eg. the new Canon Powershot SX20: $399, €409 ($582), £399 ($661)). The truth is that if people voted with their wallet and voted well, we wouldn't have this ridiculous situation... I'll stop blaming Canon and will start blaming all the people who buy a 30p camera to make 25p videos...

<MODE OFF: Sorry for the rant!>

Sorry again, I HAD to do it!!! ;-DD

Christian Ionescu · August 20th, 2009, 08:57 AM

It is great someone poot the first step on the moon... eh... Even though I already bought my marvelous Canon EOS 5D Mark II, I am in, I totally agree with you. PAL market is about twice or larger than NTSC one and yes, of course, we pay huge taxes for the simple fact of belonging to a PAL country. As long as we pay huge duties we are fully entitled to 24, 25, 30 fps and even higher and even more than our NTSC fellows.

God help us all!

Tom Daigon · August 20th, 2009, 09:22 AM

What you two folks fail to understand is that in the NTSC world of 29.97 fps, the 5DM2
shooting at 30fps is just as useless and also require some speed manipulation of both
video and audio for it to be useable at all. Canon picked a rate that really was no good
for ANYONE . And it was most likely intentional so it didnt step on the sales of their
dedicated professional video camera line.

Evan Donn · August 20th, 2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Daigon

What you two folks fail to understand is that in the NTSC world of 29.97 fps, the 5DM2
shooting at 30fps is just as useless and also require some speed manipulation of both
video and audio for it to be useable at all.

"Just as useless"!? I'd say that's a bit of an overstatement. The conversion between 30 and 29.97 is absolutely trivial, can be done at any stage in your post process, and has no impact on picture quality or motion rendering. The difference comes down to how you count frames and nothing more. Converting from 30p to 25p, on the other hand, is essentially 'a bag of hurt'. There's no comparison.

John Wiley · August 20th, 2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Daigon

What you two folks fail to understand is that in the NTSC world of 29.97 fps, the 5DM2
shooting at 30fps is just as useless .

Thats not the least bit true. YES, NTSC users have to do some conversion, but it's not really any extra work considering most people are converting to and editing with Cineform anyway. Even if you are editing 30p files, it takes literally two clicks of the mouse in Vegas to adjust the playback rate to 29.97. It's also an imperceptible change in speed.

To get 25p, on the other hand, requires either dropped frames/frame blending or a VERY noticeable slowdown in the speed of the clip.

To put things in perspective, imagine you want to get your movie distributed on 35mm film. You shoot everything at 29.97p, edit in 29.97p and hand your finished files over to the distributor as a 29.97p file. When he asks you what the hell you were thinking, you reply "Even if I filmed, edited, and finalised the movie in 23.98p, you still would've had to convert it to 24p anyway so I thought it would be no more difficult if I used 29.97p"

Ben Denham · August 22nd, 2009, 09:15 PM

As someone who bought a 5D mk ii in a PAL country (for both video and stills) I try to think of the reasons why Canon would do everything possible to introduce 25p as a firmware upgrade.

If Canon can build a robust reputation as a company that makes significant improvements to their products after their initial release then surely they strengthen their market position generally. Manual controls was a fantastic upgrade but adding 25p to this camera would convince almost everyone that Canon is totally serious about post-release improvements to their products. This level of service would surely increase brand-loyalty and as such would be a great medium term strategy for the company.

Also I think if you read through this forum you realise that the 5D is far from being the ideal camera in all situations. This removes a little bit of the force of the argument that Canon won't introduce 25p because it will hurt their video cam sales. In fact they might even consider integrating the 5D more tightly into their video cam line by adding features like 25/24p. This would encourage dual camera set-ups which combine the 5D with one of Canon's dedicated HD video cameras to get the best of both worlds.

Xavier Plagaro · August 24th, 2009, 08:44 AM

Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. The 5D MkII is a great digital camera, nobody questions this. The problem is that they make a great video mode work only in one frequency, one of the more useless of all...

Jon Fairhurst · August 24th, 2009, 10:56 AM

Converting to 29.97 and slowing the audio to .999 speed is simple. The problem is when you try to cut this with other cameras.

If you're doing cuts only, one could slow the audio only when the 5D2 video is shown. If you show both videos at once, they will eventually go out of sync.

30p isn't bad for us NTSC folk when used alone, but it can cause a post processing hack-fest when mixing with 29.97 cams.

Evan Donn · August 24th, 2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

30p isn't bad for us NTSC folk when used alone, but it can cause a post processing hack-fest when mixing with 29.97 cams.

Maybe I'm missing something here... when I drop my 30p footage from the 5D into a 29.97 sequence in FCP it appears to conform the footage automatically with no need for me to change frame rates, slow the audio, or render. When I need to mix with 29.97 footage I just edit on a 29.97 sequence and it just works, no sync issues even in multicam situations...

Jon Fairhurst · August 24th, 2009, 01:15 PM

If the frame rate isn't changing, I would guess that you're dropping every 1,000th frame. That's one frame every 33 seconds, so it's not terribly noticeable.

I'm not sure. I use Cineform (which sets the header to 29.97 and slows the audio accordingly) and Vegas.

Nic van Oudtshoorn · September 3rd, 2009, 05:40 PM

I found this link to a free After Effects preset which does a great job converting my 30p footage captured on the 5D MkII to 25p without the "slomo" effect. There's even a video tutorial!

VIDEO COPILOT | After Effects Tutorials & Post Production Tools

Tom Daigon · September 3rd, 2009, 06:19 PM

Looks like a good solution unless you have lots of clips to convert, then it would be a big PITA.
The most killer app I have seen to do EVERYTHING I need (30 to 29.97, add timecode to QT,
assign reel numbers to clips, convert to Prores and then create a disk image of those clips so you can store them FOREVER on a data DVD or Blu-ray) is this....

Canon D-SLR Log & Transfer Plugin for Final Cut Pro DV Info Net

Canon bought it from Glue Tools in June and has not released it yet. Call them up at the customer service number 1-800-828-4040 and ask Canon to make this available. If you edit with FCP you will really be glad you did!

Zsolt Gordos · September 3rd, 2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Daigon

Canon bought it from Glue Tools in June and has not released it yet.

I smell the rat, this thingy apparently will never be released. Canon bought it to dig deep in their archives and avoid the plugin to disturb their "marketing" efforts.

BTW, in another thread there is a horrifying white paper about a BBC test on 5DM2, where the cam turned out to be entirely useless for HDTV purposes and thus unacceptable by BBC.

BBC R&D White Paper WHP034 - Alan Roberts

Tom Daigon · September 3rd, 2009, 11:28 PM

[QUOTE=Zsolt Gordos;1309465]I smell the rat, this thingy apparently will never be released. Canon bought it to dig deep in their archives and avoid the plugin to disturb their "marketing" efforts.

Zsolt I think you dont understand that this plugin will enhance their sales of the T1,
the 5D and the 7D. Its just a tool to digitize and convert files so that video professionals
can use their files in a more professional work flow. It really has nothing but positve marketing affect. Chill.......

August 20th, 2009, 12:51 AM	#1
Xavier Plagaro Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 90	25p users unite! <MODE ON: Sorry for the rant!> Canon has presented several digital cameras with HD video recording, always at 30fps. Canon demonstrates once again that it doesn't care at all about 25fps users. And I keep reading thread over thread of people asking how to convert from 30p>25p. There is just one good way to end with 25p. To buy a camcorder/camera that supports fully 25p. Stop buying the wrong Canon product for your application, maybe one day they will realize it and start thinking about US (not only about USA). People will tell me they don't care about PAL (even if we are a market as large as, if not bigger), that in Europe we have taxes if a camera records video (cameras cost a lot more anyway, eg. the new Canon Powershot SX20: $399, €409 ($582), £399 ($661)). The truth is that if people voted with their wallet and voted well, we wouldn't have this ridiculous situation... I'll stop blaming Canon and will start blaming all the people who buy a 30p camera to make 25p videos... <MODE OFF: Sorry for the rant!> Sorry again, I HAD to do it!!! ;-DD

August 20th, 2009, 08:57 AM	#2
Christian Ionescu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucuresti, Romania Posts: 41	I am in! It is great someone poot the first step on the moon... eh... Even though I already bought my marvelous Canon EOS 5D Mark II, I am in, I totally agree with you. PAL market is about twice or larger than NTSC one and yes, of course, we pay huge taxes for the simple fact of belonging to a PAL country. As long as we pay huge duties we are fully entitled to 24, 25, 30 fps and even higher and even more than our NTSC fellows. God help us all!

August 22nd, 2009, 09:15 PM	#6
Ben Denham Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NSW Australia Posts: 149	Why 25p firmware could be a great move for Canon As someone who bought a 5D mk ii in a PAL country (for both video and stills) I try to think of the reasons why Canon would do everything possible to introduce 25p as a firmware upgrade. If Canon can build a robust reputation as a company that makes significant improvements to their products after their initial release then surely they strengthen their market position generally. Manual controls was a fantastic upgrade but adding 25p to this camera would convince almost everyone that Canon is totally serious about post-release improvements to their products. This level of service would surely increase brand-loyalty and as such would be a great medium term strategy for the company. Also I think if you read through this forum you realise that the 5D is far from being the ideal camera in all situations. This removes a little bit of the force of the argument that Canon won't introduce 25p because it will hurt their video cam sales. In fact they might even consider integrating the 5D more tightly into their video cam line by adding features like 25/24p. This would encourage dual camera set-ups which combine the 5D with one of Canon's dedicated HD video cameras to get the best of both worlds.

August 24th, 2009, 10:56 AM	#8
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Converting to 29.97 and slowing the audio to .999 speed is simple. The problem is when you try to cut this with other cameras. If you're doing cuts only, one could slow the audio only when the 5D2 video is shown. If you show both videos at once, they will eventually go out of sync. 30p isn't bad for us NTSC folk when used alone, but it can cause a post processing hack-fest when mixing with 29.97 cams. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 24th, 2009, 01:15 PM	#10
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	If the frame rate isn't changing, I would guess that you're dropping every 1,000th frame. That's one frame every 33 seconds, so it's not terribly noticeable. I'm not sure. I use Cineform (which sets the header to 29.97 and slows the audio accordingly) and Vegas. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 20th, 2009, 09:22 AM	#3
Tom Daigon Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 170	What you two folks fail to understand is that in the NTSC world of 29.97 fps, the 5DM2 shooting at 30fps is just as useless and also require some speed manipulation of both video and audio for it to be useable at all. Canon picked a rate that really was no good for ANYONE . And it was most likely intentional so it didnt step on the sales of their dedicated professional video camera line.

August 24th, 2009, 08:44 AM	#7
Xavier Plagaro Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 90	Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all. The 5D MkII is a great digital camera, nobody questions this. The problem is that they make a great video mode work only in one frequency, one of the more useless of all...

September 3rd, 2009, 05:40 PM	#11
Nic van Oudtshoorn Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Jamberoo, NSW, Australia Posts: 29	AE solution to 30p - 25p etc conversion I found this link to a free After Effects preset which does a great job converting my 30p footage captured on the 5D MkII to 25p without the "slomo" effect. There's even a video tutorial! VIDEO COPILOT \| After Effects Tutorials & Post Production Tools

September 3rd, 2009, 06:19 PM	#12
Tom Daigon Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 170	Looks like a good solution unless you have lots of clips to convert, then it would be a big PITA. The most killer app I have seen to do EVERYTHING I need (30 to 29.97, add timecode to QT, assign reel numbers to clips, convert to Prores and then create a disk image of those clips so you can store them FOREVER on a data DVD or Blu-ray) is this.... Canon D-SLR Log & Transfer Plugin for Final Cut Pro DV Info Net Canon bought it from Glue Tools in June and has not released it yet. Call them up at the customer service number 1-800-828-4040 and ask Canon to make this available. If you edit with FCP you will really be glad you did!

September 3rd, 2009, 11:28 PM	#14
Tom Daigon Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 170	[QUOTE=Zsolt Gordos;1309465]I smell the rat, this thingy apparently will never be released. Canon bought it to dig deep in their archives and avoid the plugin to disturb their "marketing" efforts. Zsolt I think you dont understand that this plugin will enhance their sales of the T1, the 5D and the 7D. Its just a tool to digitize and convert files so that video professionals can use their files in a more professional work flow. It really has nothing but positve marketing affect. Chill.......