Stutter / jitters whilst panning

Al Bogdan · August 19th, 2009, 07:36 PM

I figured some extreme motion examples might be useful, so I shot these sitting here at my desk. Since I don't want my Vimeo account to be full of test clips I'll be deleting these soon. Sorry for the total lack of production values, but it gets the point across.

5D Motion Test for Peter on Vimeo
5D Panning Test for Peter on Vimeo

If your Internet connection can't stream without stuttering use the download link to play them back.

I've only owned the camera a month, but I've shot quite a bit of video with it. I've done plenty of sweeping pans. As I said, the only problems I've had concerning skipping during fast motion had to do with fragmented CF cards caused by file deletes made prior to shooting the video.

Wayne Avanson · August 20th, 2009, 03:52 AM

I recently found a couple of stutters in a slow pan I did on the 5D2. The lens was the 70-200 at its longest and the IS turned on at setting 1 - cam on tripod. I think this might be the culprit (the IS setting 1) as I didn't have any stutters through out the rest of the day's shoot.

Avey

Fred Light · August 21st, 2009, 08:43 PM

Whew... glad to see other people having this issue - it's driving me crazy.

I get this all the time - and it's visible in the raw video before any processing whatsoever.

I'm thinking it's just a 5D issue.. hopefully it will (or can) be fixed.

I use mine on a Steadicam... forward movement is FINE... it's just side to side pans (not fast either), and to a lesser degree, vertical pans, that have jerkiness to them.

Peter Berg · August 22nd, 2009, 01:54 AM

Good to hear someone else is having issues.

I'd be so bold as to suggest this could be a widespread issue - It seems as if I've exhausted all other variables other than the camera itself.

anyone else have any ideas?

thanks

Ben Denham · August 22nd, 2009, 07:02 AM

I've been doing some pan tests recently and have seen varying degrees of jerkiness. Shutter speed does seem to be an important variable in what I've seen so far and I've noticed that transcoding to an intermediate does seem to clear up some artifacts and jerkiness when viewing files through various media players. But judging by my limited experience in shooting with other cameras in progressive mode (namely the Sony V1E, 25p) the stuttering that your seeing seems to be endemic to all progressive video at lower framerates (30fps or less). Please correct me if you think I'm wrong on this one but I was of the mind that that very stuttering was part of the "film look".

Tom Hardwick · August 23rd, 2009, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Denham

Please correct me if you think I'm wrong on this one but I was of the mind that that very stuttering was part of the "film look".

Good point Ben, but I've taken stuttering and juddering to be different English words. The film look does indeed include juddering pans and tilts (even zooms if you're critical) simply because there aren't enough pictures per second and the cinema blackout between frames (pull-down) exacerbates the problem.

Stutter I see as an interruption in the smooth flow of movement - almost as if you're watching 50 interlaced (where everything that happens in front of the camera is recorded) and you suddenly see a repeated frame or have a missing frame.

tom.

Don Miller · August 23rd, 2009, 10:59 AM

I think we need to know firmware and if ML is installed. Type of CF card would also be good. Is anyone getting this stutter with a high-end card like extreme IV?

If the processor can't keep up it may drop frames.

Note: There are two versions of Extreme III. I believe only the UDMA version is approved for the 5DII. It says something like 30mBps on the front of the UDMA card.

Steve Nelson · August 23rd, 2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Binder

I personally think is less about the rolling shutter and more about the codec encoding, but I'm, no techy.

Agreed, I just played the downloads back on my laptop using VLC and they were smooth as glass. If you're using Quicktime on a PC to view these you'll no doubt have problems. I stopped doing that and no longer have issues like this with panning or motion. Just my two cents.

Christian Ionescu · August 24th, 2009, 12:52 AM

I noticed that stuttering happens only on high ISO. On ISO 100 I have no stuttering at all. I have to do some tests to see the actual ISO value that triggers the stuttering.

Ben Denham · August 24th, 2009, 03:09 AM

"I've taken stuttering and juddering to be different English words."

Yes Tom I agree there is a need to differentiate between these effects and I think I have seen both "stuttering" and "juddering" in what I've shot so far with the 5D.

I was trying to think of a simple and reliable way that I might test the in-camera variables that have been mentioned so far with both tilts and pans. It occurred to me that if I put the camera on a tripod with a fluid head and pointed it at a wall with a suitable image on it I could then attach small weights to the tripod arm, tilt the camera downward as far as the tripod allows and let the weight on the arm tilt the camera upwards at what would be a fairly regular and repeatable speed (more weight would allow for faster tilts). I would then go through a number of shutter speeds and ISO settings adding light where required to keep the exposure consistent, (or perhaps simply vary aperture settings).Once the video was on a computer it would be possible to double check that the tilt speeds were consistent by checking the exact length of each tilt.

As for pans I would have a similar weight driven system that would incorporate a pulley mounted on something immoveable to translate the downward force of the weight to a horizontal pull on the tripod arm.

It might be a while before I get around to setting this up but if something similar hasn't been done by the time I do I will post the results here.

Chris Soucy · August 24th, 2009, 04:13 AM

Haven't taken a lot of interest in the 5DII, on the basis that if Canon had wanted to replace the XL H1, it wouldn't have started with that.

That said, my worst fears appear to have been realised.

Lets face it, there was no way on God's Earth Canon was going to be putting the encoding power of the H1 into a DSLR, thus shooting themselves pretty comprehensively in the nether regions in the process.

The jerky video is visible in the viewfinder as you shoot?

Possible explanations (this from someone who knows squat about it):

1. Faulty electronics or firmware - doesn't ring my chimes.

2. Processor/ codec unable to keep up with the data rate - ah, now this sounds promising.

Unlike HDV where, if overloaded (bit of a pan/ tilt perhaps, every pixel on every frame changeing) it just dumps detail to give the typical HDV smear/ load of mush - sound familiar?

Nope, on the 5D it simply starts to drop frames instead (or appear to).

Watching the video about 10 times, it became apparent that if the camera is kept stationary, detail can move and no detail or frames are lost.

Move the camera relative to the detail, and hey presto, it starts dropping frames, or giving the appearance of. It's this last bit that is so interesting.

As it can't, really, drop frames, what is it doing?

Well, as it happens, I don't know, as I didn't have a hand in designing it, but somehow, frames appear to be getting slowed up in a buffer and being leap frogged by later frames.

How, is anyones guess.

Funny, this is exactly what my venerable Sony 505 still/ video camera used to do ( a classic in it's day).

Keep it still and let the action do it's thing, so far so good for such a low pixel video.

Start waving it about and wallop, utter gibberish.

So, my conclusion?

Well, given that Canon was never, ever, going to shoot the XL series out of the sky for a SLR, I'd say what you have there is a pretty good SLR that just happens to take exceedingly average HD video when you start waving it about.

But then, I have an A1 and it takes exceedingly good HDV on a good day with a following wind, but it's still HDV, which in the greater scheme of things, will be looked back on in 20 years time as quite quaint, a little bit like sepia monochrome photos.

CS

Peter Berg · August 24th, 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

The jerky video is visible in the viewfinder as you shoot?
2. Processor/ codec unable to keep up with the data rate - ah, now this sounds promising.

Watching the video about 10 times, it became apparent that if the camera is kept stationary, detail can move and no detail or frames are lost.
Move the camera relative to the detail, and hey presto, it starts dropping frames...

As it can't, really, drop frames, what is it doing?

...but somehow, frames appear to be getting slowed up in a buffer and being leap frogged by later frames.

Chris, this seems to me, to be the most plausible explanation I've encountered yet. Yes, the stutter IS visible on the viewfinder, and Yes, it does seem like the processor just runs out of grunt and freaks out for a few frames, only to 'catch up' with a new image - thus missing some frames and causing jerky movement.

My question is therefore, is this effect replicable (I chose a forest so there was lots of detail for the sensor to cope with) by others. There have been a few people who have chipped in on this thread, but I'd be keen to find out if a few gurus who know what they're doing (I'm not completely sure I do yet by the way..) get a similar result.

thanks all,

Darryl Yee · August 25th, 2009, 12:55 AM

did you try a shutter speed of 1/60 or 1/30? did it look any better? Keeping my shutter speed at a whole multiple of the frame rate helps smooth things out for me.

a shutter of 50 at 30fps works out to 1.667 cycles per frame so your shutter will only be fully open every 3 frames.

Tomeu Santandreu · August 26th, 2009, 06:32 AM

Hi guys!

Im suffering the same issue.

I have noticed that when panning there are lots of very little jumps on the image and at the same time the image losses sharpness and turns blurry, when the panning stops, the sharpness of the image is recovered.

Are we talking about the same?

Is there any way to achieve sharp and clean pans? I know there where some video examples, but now they are removed from vimeo. I would like to download some more examples.

Thanks.

Tomeu

Mathew Zucker · August 26th, 2009, 07:19 AM

My judder tests are here TrackPan_02 1/60 IS off on Vimeo and TrackPan_01 1/30 sec IS on on Vimeo

Yes, I have the same issue "image losses sharpness and turns blurry, when the panning stops, the sharpness of the image is recovered." plus judder on the back of camera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomeu Santandreu

Hi guys!

Im suffering the same issue.

I have noticed that when panning there are lots of very little jumps on the image and at the same time the image losses sharpness and turns blurry, when the panning stops, the sharpness of the image is recovered.

Are we talking about the same?

Is there any way to achieve sharp and clean pans? I know there where some video examples, but now they are removed from vimeo. I would like to download some more examples.

Thanks.

Tomeu

August 21st, 2009, 08:43 PM	#33
Fred Light New Boot Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Nashua NH Posts: 15	Panning Studder Whew... glad to see other people having this issue - it's driving me crazy. I get this all the time - and it's visible in the raw video before any processing whatsoever. I'm thinking it's just a 5D issue.. hopefully it will (or can) be fixed. I use mine on a Steadicam... forward movement is FINE... it's just side to side pans (not fast either), and to a lesser degree, vertical pans, that have jerkiness to them. __________________ Real Estate Video Tours http://www.NashuaVideoTours.com

August 22nd, 2009, 01:54 AM	#34
Peter Berg Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 31	Good to hear someone else is having issues. I'd be so bold as to suggest this could be a widespread issue - It seems as if I've exhausted all other variables other than the camera itself. anyone else have any ideas? thanks __________________ ------- peter berg

August 24th, 2009, 12:52 AM	#39
Christian Ionescu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucuresti, Romania Posts: 41	ISO might be the problem I noticed that stuttering happens only on high ISO. On ISO 100 I have no stuttering at all. I have to do some tests to see the actual ISO value that triggers the stuttering.

August 24th, 2009, 03:09 AM	#40
Ben Denham Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NSW Australia Posts: 149	Testing variables "I've taken stuttering and juddering to be different English words." Yes Tom I agree there is a need to differentiate between these effects and I think I have seen both "stuttering" and "juddering" in what I've shot so far with the 5D. I was trying to think of a simple and reliable way that I might test the in-camera variables that have been mentioned so far with both tilts and pans. It occurred to me that if I put the camera on a tripod with a fluid head and pointed it at a wall with a suitable image on it I could then attach small weights to the tripod arm, tilt the camera downward as far as the tripod allows and let the weight on the arm tilt the camera upwards at what would be a fairly regular and repeatable speed (more weight would allow for faster tilts). I would then go through a number of shutter speeds and ISO settings adding light where required to keep the exposure consistent, (or perhaps simply vary aperture settings).Once the video was on a computer it would be possible to double check that the tilt speeds were consistent by checking the exact length of each tilt. As for pans I would have a similar weight driven system that would incorporate a pulley mounted on something immoveable to translate the downward force of the weight to a horizontal pull on the tripod arm. It might be a while before I get around to setting this up but if something similar hasn't been done by the time I do I will post the results here.

August 24th, 2009, 04:13 AM	#41
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,691 Images: 18	Hi all............ Haven't taken a lot of interest in the 5DII, on the basis that if Canon had wanted to replace the XL H1, it wouldn't have started with that. That said, my worst fears appear to have been realised. Lets face it, there was no way on God's Earth Canon was going to be putting the encoding power of the H1 into a DSLR, thus shooting themselves pretty comprehensively in the nether regions in the process. The jerky video is visible in the viewfinder as you shoot? Possible explanations (this from someone who knows squat about it): 1. Faulty electronics or firmware - doesn't ring my chimes. 2. Processor/ codec unable to keep up with the data rate - ah, now this sounds promising. Unlike HDV where, if overloaded (bit of a pan/ tilt perhaps, every pixel on every frame changeing) it just dumps detail to give the typical HDV smear/ load of mush - sound familiar? Nope, on the 5D it simply starts to drop frames instead (or appear to). Watching the video about 10 times, it became apparent that if the camera is kept stationary, detail can move and no detail or frames are lost. Move the camera relative to the detail, and hey presto, it starts dropping frames, or giving the appearance of. It's this last bit that is so interesting. As it can't, really, drop frames, what is it doing? Well, as it happens, I don't know, as I didn't have a hand in designing it, but somehow, frames appear to be getting slowed up in a buffer and being leap frogged by later frames. How, is anyones guess. Funny, this is exactly what my venerable Sony 505 still/ video camera used to do ( a classic in it's day). Keep it still and let the action do it's thing, so far so good for such a low pixel video. Start waving it about and wallop, utter gibberish. So, my conclusion? Well, given that Canon was never, ever, going to shoot the XL series out of the sky for a SLR, I'd say what you have there is a pretty good SLR that just happens to take exceedingly average HD video when you start waving it about. But then, I have an A1 and it takes exceedingly good HDV on a good day with a following wind, but it's still HDV, which in the greater scheme of things, will be looked back on in 20 years time as quite quaint, a little bit like sepia monochrome photos. CS

August 19th, 2009, 07:36 PM	#31
Al Bogdan New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Huntington Woods, MI Posts: 10	I figured some extreme motion examples might be useful, so I shot these sitting here at my desk. Since I don't want my Vimeo account to be full of test clips I'll be deleting these soon. Sorry for the total lack of production values, but it gets the point across. 5D Motion Test for Peter on Vimeo 5D Panning Test for Peter on Vimeo If your Internet connection can't stream without stuttering use the download link to play them back. I've only owned the camera a month, but I've shot quite a bit of video with it. I've done plenty of sweeping pans. As I said, the only problems I've had concerning skipping during fast motion had to do with fragmented CF cards caused by file deletes made prior to shooting the video.

August 20th, 2009, 03:52 AM	#32
Wayne Avanson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lancashire UK Posts: 496	I recently found a couple of stutters in a slow pan I did on the 5D2. The lens was the 70-200 at its longest and the IS turned on at setting 1 - cam on tripod. I think this might be the culprit (the IS setting 1) as I didn't have any stutters through out the rest of the day's shoot. Avey

August 22nd, 2009, 07:02 AM	#35
Ben Denham Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NSW Australia Posts: 149	I've been doing some pan tests recently and have seen varying degrees of jerkiness. Shutter speed does seem to be an important variable in what I've seen so far and I've noticed that transcoding to an intermediate does seem to clear up some artifacts and jerkiness when viewing files through various media players. But judging by my limited experience in shooting with other cameras in progressive mode (namely the Sony V1E, 25p) the stuttering that your seeing seems to be endemic to all progressive video at lower framerates (30fps or less). Please correct me if you think I'm wrong on this one but I was of the mind that that very stuttering was part of the "film look".

August 23rd, 2009, 10:59 AM	#37
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	I think we need to know firmware and if ML is installed. Type of CF card would also be good. Is anyone getting this stutter with a high-end card like extreme IV? If the processor can't keep up it may drop frames. Note: There are two versions of Extreme III. I believe only the UDMA version is approved for the 5DII. It says something like 30mBps on the front of the UDMA card.

August 25th, 2009, 12:55 AM	#43
Darryl Yee New Boot Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 11	did you try a shutter speed of 1/60 or 1/30? did it look any better? Keeping my shutter speed at a whole multiple of the frame rate helps smooth things out for me. a shutter of 50 at 30fps works out to 1.667 cycles per frame so your shutter will only be fully open every 3 frames.

August 26th, 2009, 06:32 AM	#44
Tomeu Santandreu Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Spain Posts: 26	Hi guys! Im suffering the same issue. I have noticed that when panning there are lots of very little jumps on the image and at the same time the image losses sharpness and turns blurry, when the panning stops, the sharpness of the image is recovered. Are we talking about the same? Is there any way to achieve sharp and clean pans? I know there where some video examples, but now they are removed from vimeo. I would like to download some more examples. Thanks. Tomeu