5D Mark II used as 8mm Projector CMOS Pickup

James Miller · July 4th, 2009, 11:25 AM

The wonderful Kodachrome isn't great seeing the grains. Yes the sharpness does drift off, I'll have do do some calculations on a lens and find a more suitable alternative.

I do still like the idea of projecting onto the sensor so will find something that works.

Been playing with projector with the LED light. If I get the led to pulse at: 1/ matched frame to the speed of the film 18fps or 2/ 30fps to match the camera I could take away the projectors shutters. I'd have to put in a brushless motor and an optical sensor for a trigger. With 555 chips it should be possible.

Dave Contreras · July 6th, 2009, 01:56 PM

This is great info. I have several Super 8 cameras as well as 16mm cameras that I plan on dusting off soon.

Quick question, you're projecting the film right onto the sensor right? So the camera has no lens? Do you put the camera in mirror lock up mode?

Tom Hardwick · July 7th, 2009, 01:14 AM

If it's not in mirror lockup mode, all the light goes into the pentaprism.

Years ago I used my Canon EF (lensless, but not in mirror lockup mode of course) to copy frames of Super-8 onto Ektachrome 64 film. The Super 8 was held in a mask in my enlarger's gate, and my Canon was upside down. The tiny Super-8 frame was projected into the EF's mirror box, and the resulting 35 mm slides were far easier to print.

My very high quality 50 mm Nikon enlarging lens had a beautifully flat field and very even coverage, unlike most Super-8 projection lenses.

tom.

Adrian Frearson · July 7th, 2009, 05:34 AM

Good thinking James. I have just got the GH1 and was going to give it a try on some telecine when I've got used to the camera and settings.
The best diy telecines I've seen have been done with a macro lens, like a few others have pointed out earlier. The thing that would concern me most about your first method of going straight to the sensor, is muck getting inside the camera. Projecting old film, no matter how clean you are, usually kicks up some dirt and debris, so having the naked camera that close to it all might cause some damage?
I would have expected the rolling shutter skew to be worse than it was in your transfer, apart from the soft edges it looked very nice indeed.

Bruce Rawlings · February 27th, 2010, 01:01 PM

Just come across this thread. From my old days of cine I remember the trick of getting 16 and two thirds speed on all the Mark M/DL etc and 7 and 8 series Eumig projectors. Take the back off the machine and set metal flag at 60hz. This will allow the speed slider to move across the drive disc a little more, so by lowering the speed control you will get the speed. Run without film but with lamp on and get rid of flicker. When film is loaded you may need to nudge up slightly to allow for film drive lag.

Andrew Waite · February 27th, 2010, 06:56 PM

I'm very excited about the possibilities of this working out well!!!!

Justin Ferar · February 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM

I didn't realize how wide super 8 is...

That's almost 16x9!

Tom Hardwick · February 28th, 2010, 07:22 AM

The Super-8 frame is 5.47 x 4.1 mm, so exactly 4:3. Of course you could mask the gate or shoot through an anamorphic, but it was still essentially 4:3.

James Miller · March 14th, 2011, 01:20 AM

News update (March 2011): In case anyone stumbles across this thread.

This is my method for transferring 8mm footage using the Canon 5Dmk2 in real time. The results are very good for such a fast method if you cannot afford the money or time for frame scanning.

The Projector - 8mm Direct to 5Dmk2

Description (as Vimeo)

00:42 - It very important to use a flat type LED's not the dome shaped ones. The dome shape LED's will give you lots of blooming and the focus will drift at the edges making you suspect the lens.

00:58 - I drilled 3 holes in the body of the projector for the LED flexible light strip, behind where the original bulb used to sit. I mask out light I don't want projected with putty. The position of the lights helps mask out some of the scratches. I need to add another couple of (horizontal) lights either side of the centre light.

01:29 - I modified the original projector lens to try and achieve a flat field image. Made from the rear element from a Carl Zeiss Flektogon 35mm and attached to the original lens tube with a bit a tape no less. You could use standard lens and there are some very nice ones out there.

03:08 - Utilising the body from the old 35mm lens, it proved a good way in shielding the projector from light pollution, I also added a 12mm extension tube. A lens cloth draped over the front further seals the light from entering, of course you could just film in very low light.

00:12 - I put 2 drive belts on the motor, this slowed the motor down just enough to reduce the shutter flicker. The Canon 5Dmk2 was set to 24p and 1/50 for our electrical phase.

ISO ranged from base up to 1000, depending on exposure of original film. The footage is fine at ISO 1000 but this could be reduced by using a more powerful flat lens LED.

03:30 - Focus and frame size changed by moving the projector or camera and adjusting the screw type lens. Try and focus on the film grain and not the scratches.

00:37 - I removed the internal mask for 8mm & S8mm aspects at the gate to project an unrestricted image into the camera. You gain areas that are hidden but they have the perfs though them and you see the top and bottom of the next and previous frame, but you can re-mask in post. If it's personal footage you want to see everything on the frame, some times it makes the difference.

You can use the crop sensor DSLR's but the lens would need changing or modifying unless you wanted a cropped image. On this lens and projector I can not bring the camera near enough without fouling on the body of the camera or projector body to get a full image captured.

I have tried to make this project as accessible as possible and apart from the camera, all the items are fairly cheap to pick up.

Projector used: Eumig Mark 501, I also use the Eumig 610D & the Eumig Mark DL
Camera: Canon 5Dmk2

Ref LED: maplin.co.uk/dc-12-v-flexible-led-light-strip-400mm-47376

Here are links to a couple of films transferred using this exact setup:
vimeo.com/20900718
vimeo.com/20871186

Thanks, James

July 7th, 2009, 05:34 AM	#19
Adrian Frearson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: U.K Posts: 154	Good thinking James. I have just got the GH1 and was going to give it a try on some telecine when I've got used to the camera and settings. The best diy telecines I've seen have been done with a macro lens, like a few others have pointed out earlier. The thing that would concern me most about your first method of going straight to the sensor, is muck getting inside the camera. Projecting old film, no matter how clean you are, usually kicks up some dirt and debris, so having the naked camera that close to it all might cause some damage? I would have expected the rolling shutter skew to be worse than it was in your transfer, apart from the soft edges it looked very nice indeed. __________________ Adrian http://chillfactorfilms.com

February 27th, 2010, 06:56 PM	#21
Andrew Waite Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 307	I'm very excited about the possibilities of this working out well!!!! __________________ http://www.higherdefinitionmedia.com RED One #6135 "Spartacus"

February 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM	#22
Justin Ferar Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Larkspur, CA Posts: 378	I didn't realize how wide super 8 is... That's almost 16x9! __________________ www.justinferar.com www.weddingsonfilm.com

March 14th, 2011, 01:20 AM	#24
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	Re: 5D Mark II used as 8mm Projector CMOS Pickup News update (March 2011): In case anyone stumbles across this thread. This is my method for transferring 8mm footage using the Canon 5Dmk2 in real time. The results are very good for such a fast method if you cannot afford the money or time for frame scanning. The Projector - 8mm Direct to 5Dmk2 The Projector - 8mm Direct to 5Dmk2 on Vimeo Description (as Vimeo) 00:42 - It very important to use a flat type LED's not the dome shaped ones. The dome shape LED's will give you lots of blooming and the focus will drift at the edges making you suspect the lens. 00:58 - I drilled 3 holes in the body of the projector for the LED flexible light strip, behind where the original bulb used to sit. I mask out light I don't want projected with putty. The position of the lights helps mask out some of the scratches. I need to add another couple of (horizontal) lights either side of the centre light. 01:29 - I modified the original projector lens to try and achieve a flat field image. Made from the rear element from a Carl Zeiss Flektogon 35mm and attached to the original lens tube with a bit a tape no less. You could use standard lens and there are some very nice ones out there. 03:08 - Utilising the body from the old 35mm lens, it proved a good way in shielding the projector from light pollution, I also added a 12mm extension tube. A lens cloth draped over the front further seals the light from entering, of course you could just film in very low light. 00:12 - I put 2 drive belts on the motor, this slowed the motor down just enough to reduce the shutter flicker. The Canon 5Dmk2 was set to 24p and 1/50 for our electrical phase. ISO ranged from base up to 1000, depending on exposure of original film. The footage is fine at ISO 1000 but this could be reduced by using a more powerful flat lens LED. 03:30 - Focus and frame size changed by moving the projector or camera and adjusting the screw type lens. Try and focus on the film grain and not the scratches. 00:37 - I removed the internal mask for 8mm & S8mm aspects at the gate to project an unrestricted image into the camera. You gain areas that are hidden but they have the perfs though them and you see the top and bottom of the next and previous frame, but you can re-mask in post. If it's personal footage you want to see everything on the frame, some times it makes the difference. You can use the crop sensor DSLR's but the lens would need changing or modifying unless you wanted a cropped image. On this lens and projector I can not bring the camera near enough without fouling on the body of the camera or projector body to get a full image captured. I have tried to make this project as accessible as possible and apart from the camera, all the items are fairly cheap to pick up. Projector used: Eumig Mark 501, I also use the Eumig 610D & the Eumig Mark DL Camera: Canon 5Dmk2 Ref LED: maplin.co.uk/dc-12-v-flexible-led-light-strip-400mm-47376 Here are links to a couple of films transferred using this exact setup: vimeo.com/20900718 vimeo.com/20871186 Thanks, James

July 4th, 2009, 11:25 AM	#16
James Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 317	The wonderful Kodachrome isn't great seeing the grains. Yes the sharpness does drift off, I'll have do do some calculations on a lens and find a more suitable alternative. I do still like the idea of projecting onto the sensor so will find something that works. Been playing with projector with the LED light. If I get the led to pulse at: 1/ matched frame to the speed of the film 18fps or 2/ 30fps to match the camera I could take away the projectors shutters. I'd have to put in a brushless motor and an optical sensor for a trigger. With 555 chips it should be possible.

July 6th, 2009, 01:56 PM	#17
Dave Contreras Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 33	This is great info. I have several Super 8 cameras as well as 16mm cameras that I plan on dusting off soon. Quick question, you're projecting the film right onto the sensor right? So the camera has no lens? Do you put the camera in mirror lock up mode?

July 7th, 2009, 01:14 AM	#18
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	If it's not in mirror lockup mode, all the light goes into the pentaprism. Years ago I used my Canon EF (lensless, but not in mirror lockup mode of course) to copy frames of Super-8 onto Ektachrome 64 film. The Super 8 was held in a mask in my enlarger's gate, and my Canon was upside down. The tiny Super-8 frame was projected into the EF's mirror box, and the resulting 35 mm slides were far easier to print. My very high quality 50 mm Nikon enlarging lens had a beautifully flat field and very even coverage, unlike most Super-8 projection lenses. tom.

February 27th, 2010, 01:01 PM	#20
Bruce Rawlings Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cardiff, Wales, UK Posts: 410	Just come across this thread. From my old days of cine I remember the trick of getting 16 and two thirds speed on all the Mark M/DL etc and 7 and 8 series Eumig projectors. Take the back off the machine and set metal flag at 60hz. This will allow the speed slider to move across the drive disc a little more, so by lowering the speed control you will get the speed. Run without film but with lamp on and get rid of flicker. When film is loaded you may need to nudge up slightly to allow for film drive lag.

February 28th, 2010, 07:22 AM	#23
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The Super-8 frame is 5.47 x 4.1 mm, so exactly 4:3. Of course you could mask the gate or shoot through an anamorphic, but it was still essentially 4:3.