Follow-focus for zooming?

David A. Fisher · June 17th, 2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Then again, zooming is also for news and live sports - and when you want a POV amateur shot in your film. :)

Seriously, the 5D makes pretty images, but the last place I'd use it is for sports and news. I shot sports for six years and I can't imagine (even with a third party rig like Red Rock or Zatuco) throwing this puppy on my shoulder and running up and down the sidelines. Nor would I want to. Thats not what makes this camera great. It's like using a hammer to put in a screw, it's not it's function. Now would I use a 5D on a great nature doc? Yep. On interviews? Yep. For Cowboys vs. Redskins? Hell no. For instant coverage of the train wreck down the street? Hell no.

This is not a news camera. This is not a sports camera. This a camera to make pretty pictures when you have the time to do setups properly and make full use of the primes that you can now use. Isn't that the whole reason we're buying these things? To take full advantage on the bokeh? Now you want to zoom like an MTV junky? Have at it. I'm going to continue making pretty picayune moving images.

Mike Williams · June 17th, 2009, 04:51 PM

I have my third live event under my belt where the 5D was my sole camera in use. All three times were under duress..... my main cam was down.

Here is where I have forced myself to examine the possibility of buying the tools to make the cam more capable at run and gun, hence the search for improved zoom control.

Fact is the portability, low light and amazing image as well as all of the other good stuff just makes it hard to go back to hauling my EX and all the related stuff that makes the bag super heavy.

For event shooters like me that makes a huge difference in how our lower backs feel around age 40 :)

Being a Glide cam user I RARELY zoom except for the walks. Frame and shoot, or glide but a smooth zoom would be nice if even just for the walks.

Thanks to all for the killer sugestions.

Jon Fairhurst · June 17th, 2009, 05:01 PM

David,

I agree. This ain't no broadcast cam.

But if I drove by a house on fire and had my camera with me, voila, it's a news cam. If I get the footage before the news truck can get there, I win. I don't even need 24p, though I sure would like audio gain control and monitoring for single system recording.

And it could be a good camera for sports background stories, a la NFL Films. Certainly, we won't see it live on Sunday afternoon.

In both news and sports context, we are often limited as to where we can be. Showing the context and zooming into the action or the crowd can be effective. Dollies and Steadicams aren't always options.

But I think we're mixing up two concepts. One is "should zooms be shot?", and the other is "what does the 5D2 do well or poorly?"

All that said, I only own primes. ;)

Ben Syverson · June 17th, 2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

Starting about 10 years ago, zooms have crept back into acceptance for features and episodic, and they can be downright cool these days if used with discretion and creativity.

Charles, I'm sure I'm not thinking hard enough, but I don't think I can recall a single non-ironic use of a zoom in/out in mainstream feature filmmaking since about 1979. Maybe there are real subtle zooms during steadicam that went over my head, but I'm talking about a real, "hey, I'm using a zoom" kind of shot. Can you point me to one?

I mean, it all comes down to taste, of course. If you can do something unconventional and make it work, more power to you... But my immediate reaction to seeing a zoom shot is to snicker.

That said, many DPs, who would rarely zoom during a shot, swear by zooms simply because cuts down on lens changes and speeds up production. You see a lot of zooms flipping through the pages of AC.

Charles Papert · June 17th, 2009, 08:15 PM

Honestly there are so many--action scenes are full of snap zooms and little reframes here and there to add energy; super-slow zooms during intense dramatic scenes; hidden zooms during pans and pushes etc. are all over the place (combo push in on dolly/zoom very common and virtually impossible to detect). I know this because I've done them on features and episodic myself and seen them elsewhere. They don't really jump out because they are what they are--just another tool in the toolbox.

One example of a filmmaker who loved zooms and never really stopped using them was Altman--he chilled out a bit from his really audacious earlier efforts in the 70's but I recall that there was plenty going on in Gosford Park which wasn't all that long ago.

Wish I could be more specific, it's just not something that really stands out enough for me to be able to quote chapter and verse. I'll keep my eyes open though.

Harry Simpson · August 12th, 2009, 12:56 AM

I wonder if this on the zoom ring too might be helpful
Cheap follow focus DIY on Vimeo

I really need zoom.

The focus and the zoom are camera shakers for me.

Harry Simpson · September 7th, 2009, 10:27 AM

I use zoom for shooting concert gigs where I want to include the whole band and then zoom in to the lead singer for close up shots. Without a second camera what other way could this be done?
I usually do as steady and gradual a zoom as possible and this last time i actually experimented with the very fast zoom which turned out looking like total crap. I use Sony Vegas Studio 9 PE.
I'd cut out the shaky zooms but need the music to sync. My short term solution is to fade in still shots that pan smothly over the shaky zooms but I'm a relative beginner to this group and have been searching and reading all i can but haven't found a solution yet.

If there was a way to successfully keep the audio in sync and i could somehow edit out the jerky video.

TIA

Mark Moreve · September 7th, 2009, 04:40 PM

Chroziel make a zoom rig for the 5d2 you can see it on there website

Mark Moreve · September 7th, 2009, 04:43 PM

How about the contra - zoom 1st seen in Jaws. Gosh I wonder how the 5d2 would manage that? I must try.

Brian Drysdale · September 7th, 2009, 04:44 PM

You could try a fluid zoom drive.

Chrosziel GmbH - For TV and movie productions

I'm with Charles on the zoom, correctly used they're great. Although, they were the shallow DOF of the 1960s and 70s. A bit of flare also helped. ;-)

Mark Moreve · September 7th, 2009, 04:51 PM

jerky zooms in & out, zooms to reframe. I don't know the amount of times I have shot something and think rather than stopping recording I'll just zoom & re frame it doesn't have to be useable it just gets me to another part of the lens. Then hold my shot 10 -30 secs & low & behold the editor has only gone & used the zoom !!! I hate it but then it spiced up the edit a bit & looked okay in the end. I remember a time when directors kept saying" make it like Hill street blues" Nightmare especially when you are shooting a cookery show!!

Richard Gooderick · September 12th, 2009, 04:01 AM

The Bebob Zoe controller transformed the interviews I shot on my XH A1 because I could zoom in and out so slowly that it was imperceptible to the ordinary viewer but it a) allowed me to adjust the framing to match the emotional intensity of what is being recorded b) cut between different framings in the edit without having to use a dissolve or B roll.
If I can so this with my 5Dmk2 I may begin to use it for interviews too.

Max Allen · September 15th, 2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Williams

I have my third live event under my belt where the 5D was my sole camera in use. All three times were under duress..... my main cam was down.

Here is where I have forced myself to examine the possibility of buying the tools to make the cam more capable at run and gun, hence the search for improved zoom control.

Fact is the portability, low light and amazing image as well as all of the other good stuff just makes it hard to go back to hauling my EX and all the related stuff that makes the bag super heavy.

For event shooters like me that makes a huge difference in how our lower backs feel around age 40 :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

David,

I agree. This ain't no broadcast cam.

But if I drove by a house on fire and had my camera with me, voila, it's a news cam. If I get the footage before the news truck can get there, I win. I don't even need 24p, though I sure would like audio gain control and monitoring for single system recording.

And it could be a good camera for sports background stories, a la NFL Films. Certainly, we won't see it live on Sunday afternoon.
\

Please correct me where needed. I'm not familiar with the 5D2 but I'm extremely familiar with broadcast run and gun. How can you reliably perform your job on a run and gun gig with the lack of audio controls, sub-par in camera audio (compared to video cams), smooth iris adjustments, zoom, quick toggling WB settings...

And I love double system audio but with no TC on the camera? I hope no one suggests we start slating shots for run and gun. From what I hear the 5D has enough issues to deal with without trying to make it a run and gun camera. There so much you can sacrifice for the sake of sensor size before your production steps too far back in time in workflow.

I would love a 5D2 designed for video.

Jon Fairhurst · September 15th, 2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Allen

Please correct me where needed. I'm not familiar with the 5D2 but I'm extremely familiar with broadcast run and gun. How can you reliably perform your job on a run and gun gig with the lack of audio controls, sub-par in camera audio (compared to video cams), smooth iris adjustments, zoom, quick toggling WB settings...

Certainly, the 5D2 isn't designed for run & gun. That doesn't mean that you can't use it that way. However, it requires workarounds and compromises. If you want shallow DOF on a budget, it could be worthwhile.

Regarding audio, get a juicedLink preamp and run Magic Lantern firmware. The audio quality is very good, and signal to noise is excellent. You get XLR inputs and volume knobs. You also get headphone monitoring with a custom cable and optional headphone amp.

6. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Conclusions on Vimeo

For smooth exposure control, get a variable ND filter. Zooms are manual only, so you can't use it as a smooth effect. You can't toggle WB settings. That would be a nice addition to Magic Lantern.

For a run 'n gun setup, you also need a shoulder rig, a follow focus, a loupe, and probably an IS zoom (for a continuous take news story). For an edited documentary with interviews, you might have time for primes.

Looking at Dan Chung's work, you can get excellent run 'n gun results with the 5D2, but you can't treat it like a normal broadcast camera. It's a higher risk, high payoff (shallow DOF for under $3k) proposition.

Max Allen · September 15th, 2009, 11:24 PM

Thanks for doing those tests. The juicedlink sounds acceptable. Is the Magic Lantern/5D2 laying it down at 48Khz/16bit PCM? I'm just guessing here.

We already have a Zacuto shoulder mount, chrosziel FF but the Zacuto loupe I've seen looks like it'd come off too easy pit against the rigors of run n gun.

Unlike most my interest in 5D2 isn't DOF primarily. It's acquiring a selection of primes for under $5k and the image quality of a full frame 35mm sensor.

June 17th, 2009, 04:51 PM	#17
Mike Williams Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USVI Posts: 232	hmmm I have my third live event under my belt where the 5D was my sole camera in use. All three times were under duress..... my main cam was down. Here is where I have forced myself to examine the possibility of buying the tools to make the cam more capable at run and gun, hence the search for improved zoom control. Fact is the portability, low light and amazing image as well as all of the other good stuff just makes it hard to go back to hauling my EX and all the related stuff that makes the bag super heavy. For event shooters like me that makes a huge difference in how our lower backs feel around age 40 :) Being a Glide cam user I RARELY zoom except for the walks. Frame and shoot, or glide but a smooth zoom would be nice if even just for the walks. Thanks to all for the killer sugestions.

June 17th, 2009, 05:01 PM	#18
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	David, I agree. This ain't no broadcast cam. But if I drove by a house on fire and had my camera with me, voila, it's a news cam. If I get the footage before the news truck can get there, I win. I don't even need 24p, though I sure would like audio gain control and monitoring for single system recording. And it could be a good camera for sports background stories, a la NFL Films. Certainly, we won't see it live on Sunday afternoon. In both news and sports context, we are often limited as to where we can be. Showing the context and zooming into the action or the crowd can be effective. Dollies and Steadicams aren't always options. But I think we're mixing up two concepts. One is "should zooms be shot?", and the other is "what does the 5D2 do well or poorly?" All that said, I only own primes. ;) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

June 17th, 2009, 08:15 PM	#20
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Honestly there are so many--action scenes are full of snap zooms and little reframes here and there to add energy; super-slow zooms during intense dramatic scenes; hidden zooms during pans and pushes etc. are all over the place (combo push in on dolly/zoom very common and virtually impossible to detect). I know this because I've done them on features and episodic myself and seen them elsewhere. They don't really jump out because they are what they are--just another tool in the toolbox. One example of a filmmaker who loved zooms and never really stopped using them was Altman--he chilled out a bit from his really audacious earlier efforts in the 70's but I recall that there was plenty going on in Gosford Park which wasn't all that long ago. Wish I could be more specific, it's just not something that really stands out enough for me to be able to quote chapter and verse. I'll keep my eyes open though. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

August 12th, 2009, 12:56 AM	#21
Harry Simpson Major Player Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Nashville, TN. Posts: 581	I wonder if this on the zoom ring too might be helpful Cheap follow focus DIY on Vimeo I really need zoom. The focus and the zoom are camera shakers for me. __________________ Nashville TN using Canon 5D MK3, Canon 550D, RODE SVM mic, 70-200 f2.8L II IS, 24-105 f4L IS, 50 and 85 f/1.8, Vegas Pro 11, Zoom H4n, Blackbird, Lilliput Monitor, Lightroom

September 7th, 2009, 10:27 AM	#22
Harry Simpson Major Player Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Nashville, TN. Posts: 581	I use zoom for shooting concert gigs where I want to include the whole band and then zoom in to the lead singer for close up shots. Without a second camera what other way could this be done? I usually do as steady and gradual a zoom as possible and this last time i actually experimented with the very fast zoom which turned out looking like total crap. I use Sony Vegas Studio 9 PE. I'd cut out the shaky zooms but need the music to sync. My short term solution is to fade in still shots that pan smothly over the shaky zooms but I'm a relative beginner to this group and have been searching and reading all i can but haven't found a solution yet. If there was a way to successfully keep the audio in sync and i could somehow edit out the jerky video. TIA __________________ Nashville TN using Canon 5D MK3, Canon 550D, RODE SVM mic, 70-200 f2.8L II IS, 24-105 f4L IS, 50 and 85 f/1.8, Vegas Pro 11, Zoom H4n, Blackbird, Lilliput Monitor, Lightroom

September 7th, 2009, 04:40 PM	#23
Mark Moreve Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: london Posts: 125	Chroziel make a zoom rig for the 5d2 you can see it on there website

September 7th, 2009, 04:43 PM	#24
Mark Moreve Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: london Posts: 125	How about the contra - zoom 1st seen in Jaws. Gosh I wonder how the 5d2 would manage that? I must try.

September 7th, 2009, 04:44 PM	#25
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	You could try a fluid zoom drive. Chrosziel GmbH - For TV and movie productions I'm with Charles on the zoom, correctly used they're great. Although, they were the shallow DOF of the 1960s and 70s. A bit of flare also helped. ;-)

September 7th, 2009, 04:51 PM	#26
Mark Moreve Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: london Posts: 125	jerky zooms in & out, zooms to reframe. I don't know the amount of times I have shot something and think rather than stopping recording I'll just zoom & re frame it doesn't have to be useable it just gets me to another part of the lens. Then hold my shot 10 -30 secs & low & behold the editor has only gone & used the zoom !!! I hate it but then it spiced up the edit a bit & looked okay in the end. I remember a time when directors kept saying" make it like Hill street blues" Nightmare especially when you are shooting a cookery show!!

September 12th, 2009, 04:01 AM	#27
Richard Gooderick Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 795	The Bebob Zoe controller transformed the interviews I shot on my XH A1 because I could zoom in and out so slowly that it was imperceptible to the ordinary viewer but it a) allowed me to adjust the framing to match the emotional intensity of what is being recorded b) cut between different framings in the edit without having to use a dissolve or B roll. If I can so this with my 5Dmk2 I may begin to use it for interviews too. __________________ http://www.gooderick.com

September 15th, 2009, 11:24 PM	#30
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	Thanks for doing those tests. The juicedlink sounds acceptable. Is the Magic Lantern/5D2 laying it down at 48Khz/16bit PCM? I'm just guessing here. We already have a Zacuto shoulder mount, chrosziel FF but the Zacuto loupe I've seen looks like it'd come off too easy pit against the rigors of run n gun. Unlike most my interest in 5D2 isn't DOF primarily. It's acquiring a selection of primes for under $5k and the image quality of a full frame 35mm sensor.