blog about how to record sound on 5dmk2

Spiro Hernandez · May 28th, 2009, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

There are two approaches for the outputs. Some preamps put out line levels, and others put out mic levels, which are much lower. The juicedLink preamps have a mic/line switch, so it will work either way. [EDIT: The last sentence was incorrect. The mic/line switches are for the inputs, not the outputs. The output is always at mic level.] If you use a SoundDevices mixer, you would need to pad down the output when feeding a mic input (like on the 5D2.)

The juicedLink preamps target camcorders, so the output is a stereo 1/8-inch jack. It's not clear if the H4n's 1/8-inch input is stereo or not. You might need to get a 1/8-inch to dual 1/4" splitter. [EDIT: The H4n 1/8-inch mic inputs are indeed stereo. Just plug the juicedLink in directly.]

I am still trying to wrap my brain around this setup. So, I have my Sony ECM-44B lav. I connect the XLR of the Sony lav to the Juicedlink. From the Juicedlink I use a cable like this to connect to my Zoom H4n.

Is this right? And this setup will help boost the audio levels feeding into the H4n?

Just to clarify, I'm wanting to take the 5DM2 out of the audio equation. I'm not interested in capturing audio with the 5DM2.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiro Hernandez

I am still trying to wrap my brain around this setup. So, I have my Sony ECM-44B lav. I connect the XLR of the Sony lav to the Juicedlink. From the Juicedlink I use a cable like this to connect to my Zoom H4n.

Is this right? And this setup will help boost the audio levels feeding into the H4n?

The juicedLink includes a 9-inch cable (1/8-inch to 1/8-inch) that would connect directly to the H4n, so the only cable you need is the XLR cable from the lav.

And, yes, the setup should boost the audio cleanly into the H4n. I should receive mine tonight and will test it with the MicroTrackII...

Chris Barcellos · May 28th, 2009, 12:36 PM

I for one, believe you can still put good sound into the 5D if we can gain control of AGC. To that end, I received a Juiced Link CX231 yesterday. I was rigging my system with a new follow focus and set of rails, and mounted it in the mix. Late in the evening, I started an impromtu test. So this is all just impression more than scientific testing.

First, let me say that the CX231 does not promise to resolve the AGC levels issue on the 5D. What I can see happening is Hudson or others cracking the AGC control, giving us gain adjustment as needed on the camera. In the meantime, if I want to get best sound into camera-- as many will want to do, the CX231 is a valuable tool.

Shooting with my Sennheiser ME-66, directly to the Juiced link seemed quieter in terms of background noise than my Beachtek DX4-A. This makes perfect sence because the Juiced Link has powered preamps on board. In fact, I believe the sound is similar to running my mic through my ENG44 and into the 5D.

I also ran my high frequency silent test tone trick (using an mp3 file generated tone from Audacity at 15400 hz) into one side of the CX231 through my IRiver 895 player, and of course the ME66 in the other side. This trick freezes the gain, depending on levels you have the volume set to. With the gain frozen, the mic input has is very clean and back ground noise is very low. Again, at first blush, it seem as clean as when I did a similar set up with the ENG44. This set up should work fine for shooting one man single mic operation, until we are given gain control on the 5D MKII. There was some concern Mic levels couldn't get high enough, with gain disabled on the 5D, but I was actually able to distort the mic sound track, so I don't think that is an issue.

I did try setting both the IRiver input and the Mic input on center with the Pan switches, but that created a warbling effect and ticking noise that made that unusable.

Monitoring is still an issue with this set up. What I want to be able to do at minimum, is split the output from the CX231, and sending signal unchanged to the Camera, while using the other side of the split to act as monitor. At the suggestiong of Robert Rozak from Juiced Link, I am going to try this product:

Headphone Amplifier | Headphone Amp | Audio Amplifier | Audio Splitter by Boostaroo

I hope to be able to split of of the output from CX231 while avoiding interference with the camera input.

Hopefully, the HUDSON project, which has already succeeded in adding a meter, and disabling the AG, will also provide monitoring through the AV port, in the same way that Canon does with the HV20, but we will have to make do until then.

I will report back with more testing of the CX231 and this camera combo.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 12:51 PM

Excellent summary, Chris! I expect to receive my preamp today and expect to repeat your results using an iPod shuffle.

I'm also hoping that Tramm will be able to enable the headphone output, assuming the manual control firmware doesn't already provide that feature - and manual gain.

Spiro Hernandez · May 28th, 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

The juicedLink includes a 9-inch cable (1/8-inch to 1/8-inch) that would connect directly to the H4n, so the only cable you need is the XLR cable from the lav.

And, yes, the setup should boost the audio cleanly into the H4n. I should receive mine tonight and will test it with the MicroTrackII...

Thanks. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the juiceLink + MicroTrackII combination.

Jim Giberti · May 28th, 2009, 04:05 PM

I just had my H4N arrive a few minutes ago. I was a music producer (still am) long before I got into film and after talking with a couple of colleagues I figured "for $350 I've got to have one".

So I'm taking it into my main studio tonight to track acoustic guitar for a commercial piece and I'm going to try it on a VO track for a TV piece as well.

This is my 48 track room, acoustically balanced with 3 monitoring systems so I'll have a pretty good sense tomorrow of it's transparency, noise level and mic quality. I'll track the VO directly in x/y and with a Neumann U87 through the H4N pre as well as my Neve strip.

Obviously I don't expect it to match them, but would be a lot more fun and versatile than a Nagra with the 5DII. I like going small and simple when I can.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 04:44 PM

Jim,

I'm especially interested to get your read on the H4n noise floor with less-than-sensitive mics. I bought the MicroTrackII, and I'm less than thrilled with its noise floor. Hopefully, the juicedLink will help make it shine.

Jim Froom · May 29th, 2009, 07:22 AM

It regards to Plural Eyes for Vegas and maybe as a stand alone app.

On P. Blooms Blog, there is a link to Plural Eyes. It is a FCP plug in.

I have been trying to sync sound from a XHA1 and sometimes the ZoomH4 and replace sound on my 5D. I made a fake 8 digit time code that I blew up and put on a 13" macbook with 2 frame beeps every 2 seconds. Works OK for syncing on the time line, but still way too time consuming. Was going to buy a netbook just for an electronic clapboard with timecode and beeps until I saw the Plural Eyes promo.

I may try the single channel trick into the 5D with audio coming out of the Zoom, but not sure if I want to give up a channel. I think Hudson's hack will work assuming his code works on next weeks firmware upgrade.

I'd be OK carrying the Zoom around with the camera and using a program like Plural eyes or a stand alone app.

I posted the following over on the Vegas Forum, this is copied from one of my post.

Regarding Plural Eyes & Vegas.

"I emailed the company and got a reply saying there were hard at work on getting it to work with Vegas.

I asked him about maybe making a stand alone version. I currently take 10-20 5D Mark II clips (*.mov) files and have them rewritten into one file with chapter marks. This is a non destructive rewrite and from what I understand they can redo audio without messing with re-encoding the video.

Anyway, it's a great way to archive and find stuff in a hurry.

I suggested it would be great if we could tag or list a bunch of .mov files and then point to a master audio file and replace the audio with the master audio when it writes on a single file with all the clips.

His response was he liked the idea and would look into it. My guessing is can probably accomplish this pretty easily as he already has the code to compare the audio waveforms then sync them up.

I watched a demo today with a fellow using 6 cameras. The syncing process was real quick.

Keeping my fingers crossed that we will see it in Vegas sooner than later."

Tramm Hudson · May 29th, 2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Hopefully, the HUDSON project, which has already succeeded in adding a meter, and disabling the AG, will also provide monitoring through the AV port, in the same way that Canon does with the HV20, but we will have to make do until then.

After 24p and PAL, headphone monitoring has to be one of the most requested features. It remains to be seen if the AK4646 is wired up to be able to drive the A/V jack while recording. The other problem with using the A/V jack is that the lv_task() is hard wired to switch to composite video output when it is plugged in, so there will need to be some modifications made there to prevent it from disabling the internal LCD when headphones are used.

Chris Barcellos · May 29th, 2009, 11:24 AM

Tramm:

Sounds a bit like a tough request, but as you say, one of the more important issue we are dealing with. With the AV port already cause interference with the sound recording with a cord plugged in, if it could be switch to sound out only for headphones, that might remedy the interference I had to deal with from that jack....

Jon Fairhurst · May 29th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Being able to monitor both audio and video is critical.

Last night I received my juicedLink CX231. It was a breeze to try it out with the MicroTrackII recorder. With the 5D2, I was flying blind - no gain control (except with the iPod trick), no meters (yours look promising), and no headphone support. So, yeah, headphone support is critical.

Of course, this assumes that we can still see the video, and that the audio quality is acceptable. With the iPod trick, the audio was barely usable, and certainly not of high quality. Hopefully, your gain reduction firmware produces cleaner results.

Evan Donn · May 29th, 2009, 03:13 PM

Monitoring is definitely up there - personally I'd consider it more important than 24p, but maybe that's just me... even with onscreen level meters you need to be able to listen in order to catch background noises, interference, etc that the mic may be picking up but your ears aren't.

Playing around with the juicedLink last night shows a lot of promise, but with the AGC running it's hard to take advantage of it's full capabilities. I'm not really interested in messing with the iPod trick, if I'm going to that much trouble I'd rather just run dual system, and it seems a waste of time at this point considering Hudson's hack can disable the AGC - any idea how soon we'll be able to get access to this? I'd really like to test the magic lantern/juicedLink combo...

Jim Newberry · July 16th, 2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

I just had my H4N arrive a few minutes ago. I was a music producer (still am) long before I got into film and after talking with a couple of colleagues I figured "for $350 I've got to have one".

So I'm taking it into my main studio tonight to track acoustic guitar for a commercial piece and I'm going to try it on a VO track for a TV piece as well.

This is my 48 track room, acoustically balanced with 3 monitoring systems so I'll have a pretty good sense tomorrow of it's transparency, noise level and mic quality. I'll track the VO directly in x/y and with a Neumann U87 through the H4N pre as well as my Neve strip.

Obviously I don't expect it to match them, but would be a lot more fun and versatile than a Nagra with the 5DII. I like going small and simple when I can.

So how'd it go--what do you think of the H4N? I've been using a Microtrack II and it seems a bit noisy, plus I can't always get enough gain. I'm thinking about using a mic-pre or trying a different recorder--possible the H4N.

Jon Fairhurst · July 17th, 2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Newberry

So how'd it go--what do you think of the H4N? I've been using a Microtrack II and it seems a bit noisy, plus I can't always get enough gain. I'm thinking about using a mic-pre or trying a different recorder--possible the H4N.

I have the Microtrack II, and have tested the H4n. The H4n is the much better product.

You can actually get very good sound out of the Microtrack II if you run an active preamp in front of it. It's still not as clean as the H4n, but it's close. And you can then run the preamp into the 5D with Magic Lantern firmware, if you want in-camera audio.

You can hear the juicedLink CX231 into the Microtrack II here:
5D Mark II Audio Exposed (First Results) on Vimeo

And compare the Microtrack II to the H4n here:
5. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Noise on Vimeo

Robert Esmonde · July 18th, 2009, 03:08 AM

I asked this a long time ago somewhere on this forum, but don't think I got an answer. Since this seems like a real 'expert group' I'll try again.

I'm interested in recording separately to the Zoom H4n and simultaneously via the Zoom headphone output to the Canon 5D MK. II. I've read that it should be possible but that I'll need a pad between the Zoom and the 5D. I'm also not sure to what extend the new Magic Lantern software makes this easier.

Can anyone confirm if they've done this successfully and give any info on the pad needed or any other useful feedback?

Thanks.

May 28th, 2009, 12:36 PM	#33
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I for one, believe you can still put good sound into the 5D if we can gain control of AGC. To that end, I received a Juiced Link CX231 yesterday. I was rigging my system with a new follow focus and set of rails, and mounted it in the mix. Late in the evening, I started an impromtu test. So this is all just impression more than scientific testing. First, let me say that the CX231 does not promise to resolve the AGC levels issue on the 5D. What I can see happening is Hudson or others cracking the AGC control, giving us gain adjustment as needed on the camera. In the meantime, if I want to get best sound into camera-- as many will want to do, the CX231 is a valuable tool. Shooting with my Sennheiser ME-66, directly to the Juiced link seemed quieter in terms of background noise than my Beachtek DX4-A. This makes perfect sence because the Juiced Link has powered preamps on board. In fact, I believe the sound is similar to running my mic through my ENG44 and into the 5D. I also ran my high frequency silent test tone trick (using an mp3 file generated tone from Audacity at 15400 hz) into one side of the CX231 through my IRiver 895 player, and of course the ME66 in the other side. This trick freezes the gain, depending on levels you have the volume set to. With the gain frozen, the mic input has is very clean and back ground noise is very low. Again, at first blush, it seem as clean as when I did a similar set up with the ENG44. This set up should work fine for shooting one man single mic operation, until we are given gain control on the 5D MKII. There was some concern Mic levels couldn't get high enough, with gain disabled on the 5D, but I was actually able to distort the mic sound track, so I don't think that is an issue. I did try setting both the IRiver input and the Mic input on center with the Pan switches, but that created a warbling effect and ticking noise that made that unusable. Monitoring is still an issue with this set up. What I want to be able to do at minimum, is split the output from the CX231, and sending signal unchanged to the Camera, while using the other side of the split to act as monitor. At the suggestiong of Robert Rozak from Juiced Link, I am going to try this product: Headphone Amplifier \| Headphone Amp \| Audio Amplifier \| Audio Splitter by Boostaroo I hope to be able to split of of the output from CX231 while avoiding interference with the camera input. Hopefully, the HUDSON project, which has already succeeded in adding a meter, and disabling the AG, will also provide monitoring through the AV port, in the same way that Canon does with the HV20, but we will have to make do until then. I will report back with more testing of the CX231 and this camera combo. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 28th, 2009, 12:51 PM	#34
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Excellent summary, Chris! I expect to receive my preamp today and expect to repeat your results using an iPod shuffle. I'm also hoping that Tramm will be able to enable the headphone output, assuming the manual control firmware doesn't already provide that feature - and manual gain. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 28th, 2009, 04:44 PM	#37
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Jim, I'm especially interested to get your read on the H4n noise floor with less-than-sensitive mics. I bought the MicroTrackII, and I'm less than thrilled with its noise floor. Hopefully, the juicedLink will help make it shine. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 29th, 2009, 11:24 AM	#40
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Tramm: Sounds a bit like a tough request, but as you say, one of the more important issue we are dealing with. With the AV port already cause interference with the sound recording with a cord plugged in, if it could be switch to sound out only for headphones, that might remedy the interference I had to deal with from that jack.... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 29th, 2009, 11:59 AM	#41
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Being able to monitor both audio and video is critical. Last night I received my juicedLink CX231. It was a breeze to try it out with the MicroTrackII recorder. With the 5D2, I was flying blind - no gain control (except with the iPod trick), no meters (yours look promising), and no headphone support. So, yeah, headphone support is critical. Of course, this assumes that we can still see the video, and that the audio quality is acceptable. With the iPod trick, the audio was barely usable, and certainly not of high quality. Hopefully, your gain reduction firmware produces cleaner results. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 28th, 2009, 04:05 PM	#36
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	I just had my H4N arrive a few minutes ago. I was a music producer (still am) long before I got into film and after talking with a couple of colleagues I figured "for $350 I've got to have one". So I'm taking it into my main studio tonight to track acoustic guitar for a commercial piece and I'm going to try it on a VO track for a TV piece as well. This is my 48 track room, acoustically balanced with 3 monitoring systems so I'll have a pretty good sense tomorrow of it's transparency, noise level and mic quality. I'll track the VO directly in x/y and with a Neumann U87 through the H4N pre as well as my Neve strip. Obviously I don't expect it to match them, but would be a lot more fun and versatile than a Nagra with the 5DII. I like going small and simple when I can.

May 29th, 2009, 07:22 AM	#38
Jim Froom Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rochester, NY usa Posts: 75	It regards to Plural Eyes for Vegas and maybe as a stand alone app. On P. Blooms Blog, there is a link to Plural Eyes. It is a FCP plug in. I have been trying to sync sound from a XHA1 and sometimes the ZoomH4 and replace sound on my 5D. I made a fake 8 digit time code that I blew up and put on a 13" macbook with 2 frame beeps every 2 seconds. Works OK for syncing on the time line, but still way too time consuming. Was going to buy a netbook just for an electronic clapboard with timecode and beeps until I saw the Plural Eyes promo. I may try the single channel trick into the 5D with audio coming out of the Zoom, but not sure if I want to give up a channel. I think Hudson's hack will work assuming his code works on next weeks firmware upgrade. I'd be OK carrying the Zoom around with the camera and using a program like Plural eyes or a stand alone app. I posted the following over on the Vegas Forum, this is copied from one of my post. Regarding Plural Eyes & Vegas. "I emailed the company and got a reply saying there were hard at work on getting it to work with Vegas. I asked him about maybe making a stand alone version. I currently take 10-20 5D Mark II clips (*.mov) files and have them rewritten into one file with chapter marks. This is a non destructive rewrite and from what I understand they can redo audio without messing with re-encoding the video. Anyway, it's a great way to archive and find stuff in a hurry. I suggested it would be great if we could tag or list a bunch of .mov files and then point to a master audio file and replace the audio with the master audio when it writes on a single file with all the clips. His response was he liked the idea and would look into it. My guessing is can probably accomplish this pretty easily as he already has the code to compare the audio waveforms then sync them up. I watched a demo today with a fellow using 6 cameras. The syncing process was real quick. Keeping my fingers crossed that we will see it in Vegas sooner than later."

May 29th, 2009, 03:13 PM	#42
Evan Donn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 795	Monitoring is definitely up there - personally I'd consider it more important than 24p, but maybe that's just me... even with onscreen level meters you need to be able to listen in order to catch background noises, interference, etc that the mic may be picking up but your ears aren't. Playing around with the juicedLink last night shows a lot of promise, but with the AGC running it's hard to take advantage of it's full capabilities. I'm not really interested in messing with the iPod trick, if I'm going to that much trouble I'd rather just run dual system, and it seems a waste of time at this point considering Hudson's hack can disable the AGC - any idea how soon we'll be able to get access to this? I'd really like to test the magic lantern/juicedLink combo... __________________ My latest short documentary: "Four Pauls: Bring the Hat Back!" Last edited by Evan Donn; May 29th, 2009 at 10:14 PM.

July 18th, 2009, 03:08 AM	#45
Robert Esmonde Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 51	I asked this a long time ago somewhere on this forum, but don't think I got an answer. Since this seems like a real 'expert group' I'll try again. I'm interested in recording separately to the Zoom H4n and simultaneously via the Zoom headphone output to the Canon 5D MK. II. I've read that it should be possible but that I'll need a pad between the Zoom and the 5D. I'm also not sure to what extend the new Magic Lantern software makes this easier. Can anyone confirm if they've done this successfully and give any info on the pad needed or any other useful feedback? Thanks.