Cinevate's new rig for the 5D2...

Dave Blackhurst · May 9th, 2009, 09:33 PM

Ron -
I've cobbled up similar rigs for my small cameras, maybe wouldn't use them for "everything", but if you want a steady stable shot, it's hard to beat a properly configured shoulder mount with handles spread out a bit in front. I add a monopod/belt support, but basically the same concept.

A rig may not be "pretty", but function over form, and results over aesthetics - if it reliably gets you a solid usable shot, who cares if you look like you lost a battle with the Borg? Not me!

And YES, I've seen these sorts of rigs in use many times... maybe different manufacturers, but the concept works.

Chris Barcellos · May 9th, 2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Chung

Glen,

That said the new little Ikan 5.6 inch LCD would probably work well with your setup.

Dan

What people aren't getting is that other than for prefocusing, an HD monitor does no good. In fact, when camera starts rolling, the signal to the monitor reconfigures, and it all in SD... and depending on default settings on your monitor, may shrink, or show the image in an in an improper aspect ratio. An easier method to maintain focus when you are shooting sholder mount is to utilize something that treats the LCD as monitor.

Jon Fairhurst · May 9th, 2009, 11:20 PM

Chris, I agree that a 16x9 HD monitor is a waste as an on-camera monitor. The two options are a Hoodloupe-type arrangement, or a 4:3 analog SD monitor. An HDMI monitor has the problem of having to re-sync when you hit record, so you miss a couple of seconds of filming - and you have to wait to find out if it's going to work. In the case of my HDMI 1080p PC monitor, it isn't compatible with SD over HDMI, so it doesn't display anything at all. With an analog monitor, it just works.

The LCD is 640x480, so whether you use a loupe or larger external SD monitor is simply a matter of choice. The resolution is the same in either case.

Chris Barcellos · May 10th, 2009, 12:26 AM

Jon

I have an SD 4:3 I got from LCD4Video, and have have used it, but I still think the LCD gives you best feel for what you are gonna get out the camera.

Dan Chung · May 10th, 2009, 01:15 AM

Chris,

Trust me I know what I'm talking about, as far as I'm aware I was the first person to use the camera with a Hoodloupe, even so I think the small Ikan is a possible solution for some shoulder mount uses. The loupe solution is good but not every run and gun shot is possible with your eye to the loupe. The mainly Redrock rig I'm using gives me the flexibility to do both.

In fact I've been testing it for a while now. Yes it cuts out for a couple of seconds which is very annoying, and yes the aspect ratio is wrong, but it does a reasonable job considering its size and weight in SD with the added advantage of being able to use the HD and enlarge option for prefocus. The HD output before recording seems better than most thanks to the 1024x600 resolution, much better than other same size monitors, and the SD is no worse to use than other SD monitors (althought the aspect is wrong).

Here's a pic of some of the combinations I've been testing, the larger Ikan HDMI LCD and the Lilliput SD monitor are not as useful as the 5.6inch IMHO.

Dan

Dan Chung · May 10th, 2009, 01:22 AM

Dennis,

Btw I thought you guys also had a HDMI monitor in the works, does it exhibit the same aspect ratio and resolution switching delay issues with the 5dmkII that most other monitors seem to?

Dan

Chris Barcellos · May 10th, 2009, 02:13 AM

Thanks Dan. I understand what you are saying. But in terms of this shoulder mount rig, they need to offset for the 5D. Looked to me like you had your rig set up that way.

I note you rigged the montior on your left side, When I've mounted monitor on configurations I tried, I put it on right side. Does that provide a more confortable process for you ?

Dan Chung · May 10th, 2009, 02:32 AM

Chris,

I agree that an offset rig is the way to go for loupe use, both Redrock and Zacuto now offer ways to do this. I'm sure others will follow.

I find that an LCD on the left makes sense for me.

Dan

Jon Fairhurst · May 10th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Depending on shooting style, having both monitor and loupe make sense. Use the loupe on the shoulder, and the monitor for low-to-the-floor shots and other situations where the LCD position is out of view.

Dennis Wood · May 11th, 2009, 11:19 PM

We did indeed display a native 1280x720 pixel HD monitor at NAB...with HDMI IO. This monitor is designed to display video from cameras like the 5D at true HD resolution for focusing purposes. SD is OK for framing, useless for focus. The Cinevate HD monitor is going through a metamorphosis, meaning we're doing something that has never been done in the industry before in terms of on-camera monitors. At this point, we're being a bit quiet about what this is, however shooters with HD cameras are going to love us when we're done.

On the shoulder mount position question, many shooters reconfigure our rear shoulder pad to tilt up 180 degrees from its shoulder position. It then rests on your chest, squarely in front of your face. We are working on a few other carbon tricks as we launch a new simplified rails adapter kit for small HD cameras like the HG21 which don't require an achromat with the Brevis MP.2 adapter. These same components will be useful for those wanting an offset shoulder option for our DSLR rig.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

Dennis Wood · May 11th, 2009, 11:30 PM

Ron, in terms of your request for footage shot using our rig....100% of Stillmotion.ca's 5D MKII footage is currently being shot in one of 3 ways using our gear.

1. 5D MKII on our Proteus rails and cage, mounted to a Steadicam Flyer. The rails and cage add the weight required for the Steadicam Flyer that Patrick uses.

2. Shoulder mounted with pretty much the same exact rig as in our video overview.

3. The same shoulder mounted rig, but mounting on our Pegasus Heavy Lifter which incorporates a standard 100mm bowl. The Pegasus Heavy lifter is designed for 10 to 35lb rigs. Configured correctly, the rig will slide down our rails (with a 35lb load) by itself at a very slight 3 degree tilt.

These three techniques help to address the rolling shutter and stability issues the camera has. Patrick did an excellent technical review in April's EventDV magazine discussing one of their recent shoots in Jamaica. The wedding was shot in combination with the 5D and the aforementioned rigs.

Randy Panado · May 12th, 2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Wood

We did indeed display a native 1280x720 pixel HD monitor at NAB...with HDMI IO. This monitor is designed to display video from cameras like the 5D at true HD resolution for focusing purposes. SD is OK for framing, useless for focus. The Cinevate HD monitor is going through a metamorphosis, meaning we're doing something that has never been done in the industry before in terms of on-camera monitors. At this point, we're being a bit quiet about what this is, however shooters with HD cameras are going to love us when we're done.

On the shoulder mount position question, many shooters reconfigure our rear shoulder pad to tilt up 180 degrees from its shoulder position. It then rests on your chest, squarely in front of your face. We are working on a few other carbon tricks as we launch a new simplified rails adapter kit for small HD cameras like the HG21 which don't require an achromat with the Brevis MP.2 adapter. These same components will be useful for those wanting an offset shoulder option for our DSLR rig.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

I'm actually going to be ordering a set of hand grips and shoulder pad soon. I don't need to purchase that extra "platform" in order to configure the pad to rest against my chest/hip comfortable do I?

Thanks Dennis!

Jon Fairhurst · May 12th, 2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Wood

SD is OK for framing, useless for focus.

Dennis, the problem with the 5D MkII is that it doesn't put out HD when filming. You really need to set up your focus marks before recording.

Fortunately, during shot setup, you can magnify to 5x and 10x for setting focus. Given that, SD is all we need for monitoring.

The biggest problem that I've found when looking for SD monitors, though, is that the inexpensive ones don't seem to put out 640x480 or 720x480. They all seem to be listed with 234 lines of vertical resolution. If that's real, then using a hoodloupe or 720p monitor is the way to go.

Just make sure that the monitor can handle 480i video over HDMI, and that it can sync up quickly.

Dennis Wood · May 24th, 2009, 08:19 AM

Thanks Jon. We have our latest panel with HDMI enabled in the shop right now so we'll be running through the whole test series again with the new platform. Our monitor uprez's SD signal to native 720x1280 pixel res. Agreed on the focus issue which is why I think our follow focus has been so popular for use on the DSLR. We've got new focus gears coming which further simplify mounting as well as provide over an inch of focus ring "breathing" ... pretty much as a result of all of the SLR lenses we've been working with on the adapter side of things.

Randy, the DSLR kit does include the extra over-shoulder base kit which dramatically increases the flexibility of the rig as it not only provides a 2nd shoulder mount but also allows rearward/downward rails mounting. From our catalog you can see that our 10Ah 12V power unit is mounted behind the shoulder for counterbalance. If you already have our Proteus rails, then you may want to give us a call to bundle the extra bits for you. You'll also see a new cage shortly which is not as tall as the current design, but wider with integrated grips for DSLR use. Both cages are optional parts of the kit designed to provide mount points for microphones, lights, external mixers/recorders and the like. One recent build here in Thunder Bay used the same rig to host a camera and laptop with wireless LAN which was used to live-stream one of the city's United Way fundraising events.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

Jason Bowers · June 1st, 2009, 07:13 PM

I really didn't think we needed to look pretty in order to use good equipment. Cinevate sets a standard for quality, affordable gear. Although it might not look as sexy as Zacuto's or Red Rocks gear I can guarantee that it will out perform it on every level. Having had exclusive conversations with Dennis and his amazing crew it is apparent that every item they release is well thought out and is an industry leader. His follow focus, and slider are prime examples of this. Before you pass judgement on the gear, please take the time to at least use it or ask questions to those who already have. More often than not, what looks fantastic doesn't do shit in the field.

May 9th, 2009, 11:20 PM	#18
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Chris, I agree that a 16x9 HD monitor is a waste as an on-camera monitor. The two options are a Hoodloupe-type arrangement, or a 4:3 analog SD monitor. An HDMI monitor has the problem of having to re-sync when you hit record, so you miss a couple of seconds of filming - and you have to wait to find out if it's going to work. In the case of my HDMI 1080p PC monitor, it isn't compatible with SD over HDMI, so it doesn't display anything at all. With an analog monitor, it just works. The LCD is 640x480, so whether you use a loupe or larger external SD monitor is simply a matter of choice. The resolution is the same in either case. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 10th, 2009, 12:26 AM	#19
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Jon I have an SD 4:3 I got from LCD4Video, and have have used it, but I still think the LCD gives you best feel for what you are gonna get out the camera. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 10th, 2009, 01:15 AM	#20
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Chris, Trust me I know what I'm talking about, as far as I'm aware I was the first person to use the camera with a Hoodloupe, even so I think the small Ikan is a possible solution for some shoulder mount uses. The loupe solution is good but not every run and gun shot is possible with your eye to the loupe. The mainly Redrock rig I'm using gives me the flexibility to do both. In fact I've been testing it for a while now. Yes it cuts out for a couple of seconds which is very annoying, and yes the aspect ratio is wrong, but it does a reasonable job considering its size and weight in SD with the added advantage of being able to use the HD and enlarge option for prefocus. The HD output before recording seems better than most thanks to the 1024x600 resolution, much better than other same size monitors, and the SD is no worse to use than other SD monitors (althought the aspect is wrong). Here's a pic of some of the combinations I've been testing, the larger Ikan HDMI LCD and the Lilliput SD monitor are not as useful as the 5.6inch IMHO. Dan Attached Thumbnails

May 10th, 2009, 02:13 AM	#22
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Thanks Dan. I understand what you are saying. But in terms of this shoulder mount rig, they need to offset for the 5D. Looked to me like you had your rig set up that way. I note you rigged the montior on your left side, When I've mounted monitor on configurations I tried, I put it on right side. Does that provide a more confortable process for you ? __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 10th, 2009, 10:54 AM	#24
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Depending on shooting style, having both monitor and loupe make sense. Use the loupe on the shoulder, and the monitor for low-to-the-floor shots and other situations where the LCD position is out of view. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 9th, 2009, 09:33 PM	#16
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Ron - I've cobbled up similar rigs for my small cameras, maybe wouldn't use them for "everything", but if you want a steady stable shot, it's hard to beat a properly configured shoulder mount with handles spread out a bit in front. I add a monopod/belt support, but basically the same concept. A rig may not be "pretty", but function over form, and results over aesthetics - if it reliably gets you a solid usable shot, who cares if you look like you lost a battle with the Borg? Not me! And YES, I've seen these sorts of rigs in use many times... maybe different manufacturers, but the concept works.

May 10th, 2009, 01:22 AM	#21
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Dennis, Btw I thought you guys also had a HDMI monitor in the works, does it exhibit the same aspect ratio and resolution switching delay issues with the 5dmkII that most other monitors seem to? Dan

May 10th, 2009, 02:32 AM	#23
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Chris, I agree that an offset rig is the way to go for loupe use, both Redrock and Zacuto now offer ways to do this. I'm sure others will follow. I find that an LCD on the left makes sense for me. Dan

May 11th, 2009, 11:19 PM	#25
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	We did indeed display a native 1280x720 pixel HD monitor at NAB...with HDMI IO. This monitor is designed to display video from cameras like the 5D at true HD resolution for focusing purposes. SD is OK for framing, useless for focus. The Cinevate HD monitor is going through a metamorphosis, meaning we're doing something that has never been done in the industry before in terms of on-camera monitors. At this point, we're being a bit quiet about what this is, however shooters with HD cameras are going to love us when we're done. On the shoulder mount position question, many shooters reconfigure our rear shoulder pad to tilt up 180 degrees from its shoulder position. It then rests on your chest, squarely in front of your face. We are working on a few other carbon tricks as we launch a new simplified rails adapter kit for small HD cameras like the HG21 which don't require an achromat with the Brevis MP.2 adapter. These same components will be useful for those wanting an offset shoulder option for our DSLR rig. Cheers, Dennis Wood www.cinevate.com

May 11th, 2009, 11:30 PM	#26
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Ron, in terms of your request for footage shot using our rig....100% of Stillmotion.ca's 5D MKII footage is currently being shot in one of 3 ways using our gear. 1. 5D MKII on our Proteus rails and cage, mounted to a Steadicam Flyer. The rails and cage add the weight required for the Steadicam Flyer that Patrick uses. 2. Shoulder mounted with pretty much the same exact rig as in our video overview. 3. The same shoulder mounted rig, but mounting on our Pegasus Heavy Lifter which incorporates a standard 100mm bowl. The Pegasus Heavy lifter is designed for 10 to 35lb rigs. Configured correctly, the rig will slide down our rails (with a 35lb load) by itself at a very slight 3 degree tilt. These three techniques help to address the rolling shutter and stability issues the camera has. Patrick did an excellent technical review in April's EventDV magazine discussing one of their recent shoots in Jamaica. The wedding was shot in combination with the 5D and the aforementioned rigs.

May 24th, 2009, 08:19 AM	#29
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Thanks Jon. We have our latest panel with HDMI enabled in the shop right now so we'll be running through the whole test series again with the new platform. Our monitor uprez's SD signal to native 720x1280 pixel res. Agreed on the focus issue which is why I think our follow focus has been so popular for use on the DSLR. We've got new focus gears coming which further simplify mounting as well as provide over an inch of focus ring "breathing" ... pretty much as a result of all of the SLR lenses we've been working with on the adapter side of things. Randy, the DSLR kit does include the extra over-shoulder base kit which dramatically increases the flexibility of the rig as it not only provides a 2nd shoulder mount but also allows rearward/downward rails mounting. From our catalog you can see that our 10Ah 12V power unit is mounted behind the shoulder for counterbalance. If you already have our Proteus rails, then you may want to give us a call to bundle the extra bits for you. You'll also see a new cage shortly which is not as tall as the current design, but wider with integrated grips for DSLR use. Both cages are optional parts of the kit designed to provide mount points for microphones, lights, external mixers/recorders and the like. One recent build here in Thunder Bay used the same rig to host a camera and laptop with wireless LAN which was used to live-stream one of the city's United Way fundraising events. Cheers, Dennis Wood www.cinevate.com

June 1st, 2009, 07:13 PM	#30
Jason Bowers Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Thunder Bay, ON. Canada Posts: 374	I really didn't think we needed to look pretty in order to use good equipment. Cinevate sets a standard for quality, affordable gear. Although it might not look as sexy as Zacuto's or Red Rocks gear I can guarantee that it will out perform it on every level. Having had exclusive conversations with Dennis and his amazing crew it is apparent that every item they release is well thought out and is an industry leader. His follow focus, and slider are prime examples of this. Before you pass judgement on the gear, please take the time to at least use it or ask questions to those who already have. More often than not, what looks fantastic doesn't do shit in the field.