MKII phantom power..? at DVinfo.net

Peer Landa · April 28th, 2009, 12:51 AM

Anyone knows if the MKII's mic-input delivers 3v phantom power? I got a snazzy shotgun mic for video cameras that needs the 3 volts.

-- peer

Ray Bell · April 28th, 2009, 05:04 AM

No Sir it doesn't....

Brian Larson · April 28th, 2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peer Landa

Anyone knows if the MKII's mic-input delivers 3v phantom power? I got a snazzy shotgun mic for video cameras that needs the 3 volts.

-- peer

I just have to ask,
What do you mean 3volt phantom power?
is there a new standard?

i always assumed that phantom power was today +48 volt (DIN 45596)
???

Peer Landa · April 28th, 2009, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Larson

I just have to ask, What do you mean 3volt phantom power? is there a new standard? i always assumed that phantom power was today +48 volt (DIN 45596)???

Here's the mic I got: Tinymike On-Camera Microphone Solutions: Ambient Recording GmbH

-- peer

Brian Larson · April 28th, 2009, 08:47 AM

Duh.. silly me, it is an ELECTRET microphone.

you need one of these:

Ambient Products Microphone Power Supplies EMP Electret Microphone Power

and a phantom power source.

but i thought most cameras supplied power to charge an electret microphone
hmmm..

come to think of it,
i didnt think electret microphones actually required a polarizing voltage.

fascinating...

i hope you can find a solution....
cheers!

Dan Brockett · April 28th, 2009, 11:35 AM

That will be a lot of boxes and wires to use that mic. I am going with the Zoom H4N. Better quality sound than you can ever hope to get out of the Canon 5D MKII. Plus you can use real XLR phantom powered mics and have phantom power and decent pre-amps built into the recorder.

IMHO, sound with the Canon 5D MKII is a lost cause other than for bad ambient. Even if you put the new Beachtek on it, the camera becomes physically huge and ungainly and I have yet to see any definitive lab testing that shows that their little pilot tone idea actually allows for decent sound quality. Plus, the list price on the Beachtek is more than the Zoom.

I don't know why everyone except experienced sound people seem so intimidated by double system sound? It's not that difficult and the end result is MUCH better sound quality than the 5D MKII could ever hope to achieve.

Dan

Dan Chung · April 28th, 2009, 11:49 AM

Dan,

I agree with most of that, my Edirol R-09 developed a fault so I went out and treated myself to the Sony PCM-D50 recorder today, I looked at the ZoomH4n as well but it seemed a little plastic to me. I have a Sounddevices MixPre so the lack of XLR's are not really an issue. Any other reason I should have gone with the H4n instead of the Sony?

Dan

Tom Roper · April 28th, 2009, 11:53 AM

I use the Zoom H4 but even the 5D2 sound from the built in mic is useful to have for syncing video the with the field recorder, then go back and delete the cam audio track, or mix it in for 5.1 surround as required.

Chris Barcellos · April 28th, 2009, 12:10 PM

I shot the the 5D this weekend, using an old Beachtek DX-A4 adapter attached to camera. I ran it from an Eng44 field mixer. I also recorded the same sound to an independent HiMD recorder, at PCM level. I have started edit, and have been a bit surprised that the camera recording is pretty nice. I will eventually during editing process compare with the HiMD recordings and let you know how much difference there is.

I think the new Adapter coming out from Beachtek at $ 379 may be the way to go to get gain under control, and avoid the double system sound issues. And, as I understand it, it will provide Phantom power.

Dan Chung · April 28th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Chris,

I've tested the 5dmkII audio using a 1khz XLR tone generator on left channel of a Beacktek DXA-6 and a Sanken CS-1 shotgun mic on the right. Despite a slight bleed of the tone the sound recorded to the 5dmkII's right channel was pretty darn good, and the agc was almost totally defeated. It blew away any previous audio I had got from the 5dmkII. For this reason and the few tests I've seen on Vimeo I have high hopes that the Beachtek DXA-5D will work as advertised using a much higher frequency.

Despite this I am going to continue doing double sound for serious work whenever I can because I think the extra insurance is worth it. For run and gun I think the Beachtek will be a major boon though.

Dan

Dan Chung · April 28th, 2009, 12:49 PM

Dan,

FYI, there's a good review of the H4n and some comparisons with the Sony PCM-D50 here Brad Linder's blog: Zoom H4n review

I think after listening to that I will stick to the Sony for now.

Dan

Dan Brockett · April 28th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Hi Dan:

I suspect that the Sony will sound better but to equip it with XLRs costs a LOT more. I think that the Zoom sounds pretty great for the money and the ability to record four tracks in a small hand held recorder for less than U.S. $349.00 is pretty impressive. The mic preamps on the original H4 weren't very good and they did improve them immensely on the H4N.

While I like the idea of the Beachtek, I feel it is over priced and over sized. Have you seen the pictures of the 5D MKII with the Beachtek on it? It makes the camera huge. I do like the advantage with the Zoom or the Sony of being able to locate the recorder wherever, mainly in sit down interviews.

Different strokes for sure but as an audio writer, I don't see the 5D MKII audio circuitry ever producing audio quality that is more than mediocre. Canon has never been known for the pristine audio on their video cameras, why would the 5D MKII be any different?

Dan

Jon Fairhurst · April 28th, 2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Chung

...Despite a slight bleed of the tone the sound recorded to the 5dmkII's right channel...

Any bleed would be really easy to remove. A simple notch EQ would take care of it, and the cheapest NR software will easily eliminate it.

The bigger concern would be any hiss at high gain levels. We have the Microtrack II, and the hiss is a real problem. We've no choice but to use NR when used with our AT815b. If the Beachtek is silent(ish), I'll consider it. Not having to sync sound can save a lot of time...

Dan Brockett · April 28th, 2009, 06:47 PM

Based off of my limited experience with the 5D MKII Jon, also...

1. Low S/N ratio
2. Low channel separation
3. Low dynamic range
4. Low quality audio chain

I have yet to hear a camcorder of any kind that has truly good sound, most of them barely make it into the acceptable category. The RED One has horrible audio quality. The Panasonics, beginning with the DVX100, have pretty decent audio quality although I am hearing bad things about the HMC150 audio, but have not tested one myself. My HVX200 was acceptable, not great and same with my HPX170. EX1 is so, so as far as the points above.

I still feel that trying to make the 5D MKII into something it is not is a waste of time and money. People will try to make it into a full blown cinema camera, hanging weird rod and cage assemblies, monitors, matte boxes, follow focuses, etc. it is obviously not. People will try to make it's decidedly low quality audio chain into something it is not, high quality. That's fine. But most of the low end SD card recorders like the Zoom, Sony, even the little Olympus, Yamaha, etc. all sound ten times better than most $100k cameras.

Audio has never been and probably will never be a design goal for camcorder manufacturers because it doesn't sell cameras. I have yet to see a camera advertised as an audiophile camera, even through the technology exists to build in audiophile level sound for just a couple of hundred dollars for the camera manufacturers. So I say why fight it, just circumvent it and buy these cool, cheap little recorders that do sound amazingly good for the money. Heck, my little Sony MZR37P Mini Disc recorders that I bought for $99.00 on close out from B&H six years ago dust the audio on a $50k camera.

Sigh...as far as the camera manufacturer marketing departments are concerned, audio doesn't exist. Thanks goodness for musicians or we wouldn't even have these really impressive little digital audio recorders.

Dan

Dan Chung · April 28th, 2009, 07:36 PM

Dan,

Good points again.

I was only intending to use the Sony recorder with my Sound Devices mixer but maybe I'll take it back and look at the h4n again. You are right, having a small XLR equipped device would be useful. Maybe I should buy both :)

I have seen the size of the Beachtek and it is a little larger than I'd hoped but it stuck on a 5dmkII it is not really any larger than my old Nikon D3 with a flash battery pack stuck on the bottom of it. Not ideal for being discreet but luckily there are many photographers who stroll around like that here in China so blending in is less of a problem!

I was pleasantly surprised with the 5dmkII audio when the agc was defeated with tone, I guess my expectations were a little lower. It did not sound much different to my EX-1 in the unscientific testing I was doing. All I want to get is a usable track for run and gun for when I'm in a rush, then use a seperate recorder whenever possible.

Not sure you will approve but I'm moving pretty rapidly from the barebones 5dmkII camp to the bells and whistles one. I'm finding that a mattebox and shoulder rig are actually very useful and I am playing with monitors too, for me it depends on the assignment as to how useful the extras are. It's funny I have two projects being edited right now, one is with all the gear and separate sound, the other just a 5dmkII and a radio mic.

Dan (the second?)

April 28th, 2009, 12:51 AM	#1
Peer Landa Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Norwegian lost in California Posts: 890	MKII phantom power..? Anyone knows if the MKII's mic-input delivers 3v phantom power? I got a snazzy shotgun mic for video cameras that needs the 3 volts. -- peer __________________ www.NoPEER.com

April 28th, 2009, 12:10 PM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I shot the the 5D this weekend, using an old Beachtek DX-A4 adapter attached to camera. I ran it from an Eng44 field mixer. I also recorded the same sound to an independent HiMD recorder, at PCM level. I have started edit, and have been a bit surprised that the camera recording is pretty nice. I will eventually during editing process compare with the HiMD recordings and let you know how much difference there is. I think the new Adapter coming out from Beachtek at $ 379 may be the way to go to get gain under control, and avoid the double system sound issues. And, as I understand it, it will provide Phantom power. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 28th, 2009, 05:04 AM	#2
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	No Sir it doesn't....

April 28th, 2009, 08:47 AM	#5
Brian Larson New Boot Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Washington DC Posts: 11	Duh.. silly me, it is an ELECTRET microphone. you need one of these: Ambient Products Microphone Power Supplies EMP Electret Microphone Power and a phantom power source. but i thought most cameras supplied power to charge an electret microphone hmmm.. come to think of it, i didnt think electret microphones actually required a polarizing voltage. fascinating... i hope you can find a solution.... cheers!

April 28th, 2009, 11:35 AM	#6
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	That will be a lot of boxes and wires to use that mic. I am going with the Zoom H4N. Better quality sound than you can ever hope to get out of the Canon 5D MKII. Plus you can use real XLR phantom powered mics and have phantom power and decent pre-amps built into the recorder. IMHO, sound with the Canon 5D MKII is a lost cause other than for bad ambient. Even if you put the new Beachtek on it, the camera becomes physically huge and ungainly and I have yet to see any definitive lab testing that shows that their little pilot tone idea actually allows for decent sound quality. Plus, the list price on the Beachtek is more than the Zoom. I don't know why everyone except experienced sound people seem so intimidated by double system sound? It's not that difficult and the end result is MUCH better sound quality than the 5D MKII could ever hope to achieve. Dan

April 28th, 2009, 11:49 AM	#7
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Dan, I agree with most of that, my Edirol R-09 developed a fault so I went out and treated myself to the Sony PCM-D50 recorder today, I looked at the ZoomH4n as well but it seemed a little plastic to me. I have a Sounddevices MixPre so the lack of XLR's are not really an issue. Any other reason I should have gone with the H4n instead of the Sony? Dan

April 28th, 2009, 11:53 AM	#8
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I use the Zoom H4 but even the 5D2 sound from the built in mic is useful to have for syncing video the with the field recorder, then go back and delete the cam audio track, or mix it in for 5.1 surround as required.

April 28th, 2009, 12:33 PM	#10
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Chris, I've tested the 5dmkII audio using a 1khz XLR tone generator on left channel of a Beacktek DXA-6 and a Sanken CS-1 shotgun mic on the right. Despite a slight bleed of the tone the sound recorded to the 5dmkII's right channel was pretty darn good, and the agc was almost totally defeated. It blew away any previous audio I had got from the 5dmkII. For this reason and the few tests I've seen on Vimeo I have high hopes that the Beachtek DXA-5D will work as advertised using a much higher frequency. Despite this I am going to continue doing double sound for serious work whenever I can because I think the extra insurance is worth it. For run and gun I think the Beachtek will be a major boon though. Dan

April 28th, 2009, 12:49 PM	#11
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Dan, FYI, there's a good review of the H4n and some comparisons with the Sony PCM-D50 here Brad Linder's blog: Zoom H4n review I think after listening to that I will stick to the Sony for now. Dan

April 28th, 2009, 02:23 PM	#12
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Hi Dan: I suspect that the Sony will sound better but to equip it with XLRs costs a LOT more. I think that the Zoom sounds pretty great for the money and the ability to record four tracks in a small hand held recorder for less than U.S. $349.00 is pretty impressive. The mic preamps on the original H4 weren't very good and they did improve them immensely on the H4N. While I like the idea of the Beachtek, I feel it is over priced and over sized. Have you seen the pictures of the 5D MKII with the Beachtek on it? It makes the camera huge. I do like the advantage with the Zoom or the Sony of being able to locate the recorder wherever, mainly in sit down interviews. Different strokes for sure but as an audio writer, I don't see the 5D MKII audio circuitry ever producing audio quality that is more than mediocre. Canon has never been known for the pristine audio on their video cameras, why would the 5D MKII be any different? Dan

April 28th, 2009, 06:47 PM	#14
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Based off of my limited experience with the 5D MKII Jon, also... 1. Low S/N ratio 2. Low channel separation 3. Low dynamic range 4. Low quality audio chain I have yet to hear a camcorder of any kind that has truly good sound, most of them barely make it into the acceptable category. The RED One has horrible audio quality. The Panasonics, beginning with the DVX100, have pretty decent audio quality although I am hearing bad things about the HMC150 audio, but have not tested one myself. My HVX200 was acceptable, not great and same with my HPX170. EX1 is so, so as far as the points above. I still feel that trying to make the 5D MKII into something it is not is a waste of time and money. People will try to make it into a full blown cinema camera, hanging weird rod and cage assemblies, monitors, matte boxes, follow focuses, etc. it is obviously not. People will try to make it's decidedly low quality audio chain into something it is not, high quality. That's fine. But most of the low end SD card recorders like the Zoom, Sony, even the little Olympus, Yamaha, etc. all sound ten times better than most $100k cameras. Audio has never been and probably will never be a design goal for camcorder manufacturers because it doesn't sell cameras. I have yet to see a camera advertised as an audiophile camera, even through the technology exists to build in audiophile level sound for just a couple of hundred dollars for the camera manufacturers. So I say why fight it, just circumvent it and buy these cool, cheap little recorders that do sound amazingly good for the money. Heck, my little Sony MZR37P Mini Disc recorders that I bought for $99.00 on close out from B&H six years ago dust the audio on a $50k camera. Sigh...as far as the camera manufacturer marketing departments are concerned, audio doesn't exist. Thanks goodness for musicians or we wouldn't even have these really impressive little digital audio recorders. Dan

April 28th, 2009, 07:36 PM	#15
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Dan, Good points again. I was only intending to use the Sony recorder with my Sound Devices mixer but maybe I'll take it back and look at the h4n again. You are right, having a small XLR equipped device would be useful. Maybe I should buy both :) I have seen the size of the Beachtek and it is a little larger than I'd hoped but it stuck on a 5dmkII it is not really any larger than my old Nikon D3 with a flash battery pack stuck on the bottom of it. Not ideal for being discreet but luckily there are many photographers who stroll around like that here in China so blending in is less of a problem! I was pleasantly surprised with the 5dmkII audio when the agc was defeated with tone, I guess my expectations were a little lower. It did not sound much different to my EX-1 in the unscientific testing I was doing. All I want to get is a usable track for run and gun for when I'm in a rush, then use a seperate recorder whenever possible. Not sure you will approve but I'm moving pretty rapidly from the barebones 5dmkII camp to the bells and whistles one. I'm finding that a mattebox and shoulder rig are actually very useful and I am playing with monitors too, for me it depends on the assignment as to how useful the extras are. It's funny I have two projects being edited right now, one is with all the gear and separate sound, the other just a 5dmkII and a radio mic. Dan (the second?)