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April 23rd, 2009, 06:19 PM | #16 | |||||||
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Interesting. Thank you for spending the time to perform the test. I plan to do my own as soon as I get a round tuit.
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For example, someone might throw out Tom's test because the 5D2 has more "clarity" and "stronger colors" than the XH-A1. The mistake is thinking that his test was intended to measure "clarity" when it wasn't. It could be much higher MTF at lower frequencies, less lens flare, or the higher color accuracy of Bayer filter arrays over prism-based systems, or another factor. Another artist might throw out Tom's resolution test because their eyes tell them that the 5D2 has more "pop" than the XH-A1. The "pop" can just be thinner depth of field. Again, no single number is going to quantify all aspects of image quality. Just one aspect. To quantify the many important dimensions of image quality, including depth of field, color accuracy, saturation, contrast of all frequencies, etc. would require a lot of numbers, not one; and even then will probably miss a few factors. Quote:
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That depends on how you setup the test. The depth of field, color accuracy, dynamic range, low light, etc. are more filmic than the XH-A1, but the noise reduction, aliasing artifacts, and the auto shutter speed are not very filmic at all. Quote:
Of course, those are precisely the "artifacts" that so many viewers love and enjoy. Most describe them with positive terms such as ”crunchiness”, ”sharpness”, etc. Other photographers perceive the artifacts as highly unnatural, distracting, and a telltale ”digital” look. I'm surprised that so many people here are in love with the image quality of the 5D2 because I dislike so much about it. I only put up with the image quality problems (shutter speed, aliasing, and noise reduction) to get the thin DOF and low light capability. |
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April 23rd, 2009, 07:42 PM | #17 | |
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April 23rd, 2009, 08:31 PM | #18 |
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<<I'm surprised that so many people here are in love with the image quality of the 5D2 because I dislike so much about it. I only put up with the image quality problems (shutter speed, aliasing, and noise reduction) to get the thin DOF and low light capability.>>
Maybe I'm just lacking in visual and artistic acuity but I've been writing and producing professionally for years with some of the best film and video gear, and footage from the 5D MKII looks gorgeous in my work. I'm shooting field work and narrative, Nikons on crane dolly and tripod and Canon glass with IS handheld and aside from Canon's unfortunate implementation it looks better than my best work with any other rig including cobos with the P&S system. |
April 23rd, 2009, 09:12 PM | #19 |
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All the footage I've seen utilizes the thin DOF, low light, or lenses that aren't available on similarly priced video cameras. Perhaps those are the reasons you think it's gorgeous? Because in other situations (deep DOF, ample light, and normal lenses), I find most aspects of the image quality very poor compared to the XH-A1. Until the image quality issues are fixed, I'll have to keep both cameras.
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April 23rd, 2009, 11:42 PM | #20 |
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Daniel, how are you handling your footage in post, out of curiosity?
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April 24th, 2009, 12:04 AM | #21 | |
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Originally Posted by Nigel Barker
Do you think that your figures for the 5DII actually mean anything in real life? How do you explain the difference between what your test measures & even the most casual recording on the 5DII by users without any talent? Perhaps some kind of optical illusion that fools us into thinking that the picture quality is better than it really is? It wasn't meant to be rude. I am genuinely bemused as to how these test results are so out of line with what everyone else's subjective opinion of the stellar picture quality of the 5DII. Movies of any kind are in themselves an optical illusion that fools the eye into thinking we are seeing real moving images. Quote:
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April 24th, 2009, 12:20 AM | #22 | |
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Here is a random clip recorded hand held on a 5DII with deep DOF & ample light that surpasses any XH-A1 footage that I have shot. What is poor about image quality that you see here but I don't? Please bear in mind that from this link that the Full HD version of this clip it has been compressed from the original 40+Mbps & 250MB file size to 7Mbps & 44MB with corresponding lower bit rates for the smaller video sizes. Barkers Videos- powered by SmugMug Later today I will upload the original file that came off the camera so that you can critique that. Cheers Nigel Last edited by Nigel Barker; April 24th, 2009 at 02:32 AM. |
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April 24th, 2009, 01:00 AM | #23 | |
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April 24th, 2009, 05:23 AM | #24 |
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It's coming, round II.
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April 24th, 2009, 07:51 AM | #25 |
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I wish you luck (although the testing effort is very interesting). You should keep in mind that even the way that MPEG determines the quality of video, is by subjective evaluation. They use standardized viewing conditions and ask the audience what they think of the quality of the video.
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April 24th, 2009, 07:56 AM | #26 |
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I have a hard time fathoming why people are even arguing this matter. I know why I decided to go with the 5DII. It gives me the opportunity to shoot incredible looking HD footage with some amazing results in regards to DOF for under $4,000. The low light capabilities of this cam are amazing as well.
I don't believe that you can get this type of result with any other cam/adapter setup in this price range. Not to mention it completely cuts the need to set up tons of equipment before a shoot ie. setting up a rail system that has a 35mm adapter on it and then adjusting backfocus, meanwhile I have already pulled my cam out of my bag and am shooting before any lights are even put up. Try trecking the xh-a1 up a 14er with all the equipment necessary to obtain the shots that can be achieved by the 5D with nothing more than a lens that mounts right to the cam. If I were to try to put together a system with the H1, or any other cam in this price range, that shoots footage comperable to the 5DII in terms of DOF, I would be spending close to 6K. To me the decision to buy the cam was a no-brainer and I am completely pleased with the results even with the lack of full manual control. Once you get to know the camera a bit, it is not that hard to get it to do what you want and create gorgeous shots, even with Canon lenses. If Canon did add full manual control through a firmware upgrade, I won't hold my breath, then I would honestly consider this camera to be my dream camera. My .02 |
April 24th, 2009, 08:30 AM | #27 |
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Ryan, the purpose is informational. The reason for doing the Imatest is because the moire in bright, sharply focused situations seems severe enough to adversely impact resolution, or originates from a lower than expected starting point.
I think we're all in agreement we've seen some really spectacular footage. The goal is to expand the uses to include workable video in the broad sense as well. |
April 24th, 2009, 08:49 AM | #28 |
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I just now realized that you are in Denver. Hello there neighbor!
If the tests are in fact to figure out ways to overcome some of the cams shortcomings then by all means test away! I personally find the tests interesting, but I think that some people might take them as trying to prove the cam to be an inferior camera for video. I was just trying to point out that even with the shortcomings of the cam, I am still incredibly pleased with it's performance based on size and cost. That's all. |
April 24th, 2009, 05:41 PM | #29 | |||
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If you want to read more about aliasing, I suggest the following: http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image...3/original.jpg Aliasing and Moire patterns Sigma SD9 Digital Camera Review: Test Results & Conclusion Most people like aliasing artifacts, but I don't. I would rather have an ounce of real detail than a pound of false detail. The 5D2 in still mode is correctly anti-aliased. It's only in video mode where Canon is forced to forego anti-aliasing because they have to skip two out of three lines when reading the sensor. False detail is the natural and unfortunate result. Preference for aliasing is like many other aspects of an image. Take sharpening for example. Some people prefer just a slight USM. Others prefer to sharpen until ringing/halo artifacts become very strong. All of our local news stations, for example, go way overboard on the sharpening, which is on top of the aliasing and interlace artifacts. Many syndicated shows, too, have a ton of aliasing and oversharpening artifacts. Saturation is another one. Some people love vibrant blues, hyperrealistic greens, and Velvia reds. Others prefer accurate colors. Desired dynamic range, too, varies by taste. Some like ultra-high contrast with blown whites and clipped blacks. Others prefer a more low-contrast image to keep more detail in the highlights and shadows. It's a matter of taste. The 5D2 has the worst aliasing I've seen in any video camera in at least the last 5 years, but the thin DOF, low light, and lenses are the reasons I keep using it anyway. |
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April 24th, 2009, 06:56 PM | #30 | |
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We shot at night in a cabin lit by candlelight, and the 5D was amazing. Likewise for close up shots of flowers/plants and insects in which I could use macro lenses and get incredible depth of field control. But for deep depth of field shots of landscapes in full daylight, the XHA1 footage was clearly more detailed and did not contain the nasty artifacts you mention (I too have issues with moire and other image problems the 5D exhibits). The 5D is a wonderful tool but it has a number of shortcomings which mean in most situations (for me anyway) it needs to be paired with a more traditional camcorder with manual control and fewer foibles. Thank you for performing the test Tom. Personally I don't find the figures surprising, and do appreciate your time. It's interesting to know. Last edited by Josh Dahlberg; April 24th, 2009 at 09:14 PM. |
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