EOS 5D Mk II Firmware Update for Video Not Coming ?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Michael Friedman

Well, what can you call 'Full HD'? Do you think 20fps is what expect from a 'Full HD' product.

There is no official (ATSC) definition of "Full HD." That's the beauty of a marketing term... you can make it mean whatever you want (and Wikipedia is no authority, by the way -- it might be a majority, but it's not necessarily right). The broad consensus of the term "Full HD" is that it simply delineates a 1920x1080 resolution from 1440x1080, 1280x1080, or 720x1280. It does *not* always imply 1080p since it commonly refers to 1080i. Some will claim that it means 1080p60, but that's not even a current broadcast standard... so frame rate doesn't really figure into it. Sony and others use it to describe 1080i.

Not only doesn't frame rate play a part in how you define Full HD, but neither does bit rate, or compression. Some camcorders record Full HD at 17mbps, but that's not always what comes down through a satellite dish... some HD channels are delivered at higher bit rates than others. Since there's no official technical definition for "Full HD" beyond the display size of 1920x1080, then you can tag along whatever frame rate and bit rate you can get away with.

As far as 20fps is concerned, it doesn't matter what you call it -- all that matters is how you use it (or whether you use it). Personally, I probably wouldn't use it for anything other than casual home use... but then, that's exactly what it's intended for. Once again, a lot of noise that's being thrown around about 20fps in the Rebel is making a mountain out of a molehill. If you actually *look* at it -- if you download the clips and watch them -- there's really nothing at all wrong with it from a consumer point of view. The vast majority of people that are going to buy this camera aren't worried in the slightest about workflow, post production and delivery... all they're going to do with it, if anything, is put it on YouTube.

And we should all be aware that the Rebel isn't "the best Canon can give us." It's simply the most affordable. There's four more tiers of D-SLR where the quality keeps going up. I would imagine that the three remaining models that don't have video yet probably will eventually.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I am only wondering if others are receiving similar notices based on their inquiry.

Likewise, I'm just as curious. Greg's message comes as no surprise to me at all... disappointing, sure, but definitely not surprising. Still would like to know if anyone else has received the same sort of communication.

[Daniel Lipats]

This statement contradicts an earlier comment by another Canon support rep indicating that they are working on a firmware update.

I don't think Canon product support reps would be a good source for this information. They probably don't know any more than we do.

[Chris Barcellos]

Well, I decided to ask Canon support directly about the status of a firmware upgrade for video. It looks to me that there is a new hard line. Here is what I sent, and what was received in response.


Dear Canon:

What is the status of any new firmware update for the Canon 5D Mark II. There has been some indication Canon would be offering a new upgrade in April, and that it could address some lack of video control issues.

Chris Barcellos

I received the following response:

Dear Chris Barcellos:

Thank you for contacting Canon product support. We value you as a Canon
customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with your EOS 5D
Mark II.

There are no plans to add additional video support the the EOS 5D Mark
II, however, future cameras may offer additional video features. If we
do find issues with the camera that require a firmware update, it will
be available for download from Canon EOS SLR Camera Systems . We do not release
firmware updates that change the functionality of the camera.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Erik
Technical Support Representative


Seems pretty clear to me...

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Canon

"We do not release firmware updates that change the functionality of the camera."

In that case we do not purchase Canon lenses.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your marketing of lenses to owners of the EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for helping us to choose Nikon.

Sincerely,

Jon
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Owner

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

...Sony and others use it to describe 1080i.

Chris, it's true that Full HD is a marketing term, rather than a formal definition. That said, in the TV business, "Full HD" meant a 1080p panel. There are no 1080i flat panels.

The problem came when people asked where the 1080p inputs were. The purists felt that you could only call a TV with 1080p inputs a "1080p" TV. Marketing people started to call those TVs "Full HD" to avoid that argument. In the early days of marketing 1080p, there was a lot of hand wringing.

In the end, "1080p" became the dominant marketing term, regardless of the input capabilities. Truth be told, if you have a good 3:2 pulldown detector, you can watch 24 fps movies that are perfectly progressive from a 1080i input, such as an ATSC transmission.

Anyway, Canon calling a 20 Hz camera "Full HD" is yet more watering down of this marketing term. It's certainly not the *full* frame rate of any HD standard. But then again, it's just a marketing term. Canon isn't hiding the fact that it's 20 fps, so I don't have a beef with it.

[Chris Barcellos]

Well, I am glad for one thing, we at least know where we stand, and what steps we need to take, to make things work... Its a shame, Canon could have made it at least a bit easier on us by giving us some in camera sound control... but at least we know now.

[Peer Landa]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Well, I am glad for one thing, we at least know where we stand [...]

Actually, I'm not sure we do. It might all be a bit of that dreaded "Osborne effect" Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia why Canon now seem quite consistent (i.e., tight-lipped) about their future releases, (which is often an indicator for good business).

-- peer

[Xavier Plagaro]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I made photographs with a Rebel XT that were published in a coffee table book that you can find in any Barnes & Noble or Borders in the country... but that's not what the Rebel is made for.

We are in the middle of the worst crisis in a lot of years. Chris, you recognize that equipement can be used in a way that was not the "intended" mode. And you can get results, did you ask less money for the pics in the book because the camera was all plastic??? I am sure your pics were good because YOU made them, the tool is necessary, but it's just a tool.

We are living in a transition from mass-markets to long-tail markets. We can't all love the same things. So companies should try to please not just the mass-market, but also the minorities. Canon is ignoring (insulting?) all the PAL people (which is not minor market, btw).

Manufacturers are not always the most creative people in the world. They sometimes aim for "grandeur" and deliver mediocrity. Or the opposite. In any case, neither crippled products nor inteligence-less management are good long time solutions. Remember Sony ignoring MP3?? DVD protection code broke in 24 hours?? Useless DVD regions?? Super Audio CD and DVD Audio war, which won?? Do I have to go on??

Canon just need to change a couple of lines of code and they can at least give 25p to all PAL users in the world. I love(d) Canon, but if they fail to do this I'll try to find my video recording needs with another company.

Nowadays we vote with our wallets and it would be nice people buy products because the things they DO, not what they CAN/COULD do...

[Nick Hiltgen]

In this day and age companies that refuse to listen to customers suggestions will fail, be they an american motor company or a japanese lens manufacturer. I find it completely believable that Canon will not add manual control to the firmware, I think it is an awful decision, but I can't think of a time when canon has provided direct support to their customers, often they listen to customers by releasing a new camera. This appears to me to mean that there is a greater likely hood of another camera be is a 1d mark whatever or an actual video camera that will offer the solutions that we would like for them to currently make. This is a sound short sighted archaic business decision that will continue to erode canon's "professional video" market share and lead to the closing of that already diminished product line.

For those of us that would like an update we're better off making friends with a hacker then wasting anymore time discussing this with canon. I'm curious if a hacked firmware were released if as a result an official firmware would be released.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

... in the TV business, "Full HD" meant a 1080p panel. There are no 1080i flat panels.

I acknowledge that, but in the camcorder business, "Full HD" has also meant 1080i (per Sony, Canon and other manufacturers). My point is that there is no consistency, thus no hard definition of the term.

Originally Posted by Peer Landa

...why Canon now seem quite consistent (i.e., tight-lipped) about their future releases...

Replace the word "now" with the word "always" and you have an accurate statement. Canon has always been quite consistent (i.e., tight-lipped) about their future releases. They never announce anything that's more than 90 days away from shipping. Nor do they post on rumor sites, just so you know. ;-)

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Xavier Plagaro

Chris, you recognize that equipement can be used in a way that was not the "intended" mode. And you can get results, did you ask less money for the pics in the book because the camera was all plastic?

No, I asked for less money because the publisher knew that I had never sold a photograph before. But that doesn't matter, I was thrilled just to have the photos running. I made the sale based on the quality of the images; the equipment I used was never discussed. The point I'm trying to make about the plastic camera and using consumer gear for professional applications is that I knew the limitations of the gear and I chose to use it anyway. I didn't complain about it; instead I made it work. And then when I had the opportunity, I replaced it with a better camera.

So companies should try to please not just the mass-market, but also the minorities.

But they already do that... for example Canon sells five tiers of D-SLR, and Nikon just as many if not more, each level corresponding to smaller and tighter niche markets.

Canon is ignoring (insulting?) all the PAL people (which is not minor market, btw).

I fully agree with you here. The lack of 25p on these things is a real shame.

[Alex Chong]

Hi all,

I am sure this may have been discussed before. I am also the proud owner of a 5D2 which has been giving me lots of fun time on the video side of things (Not to mention the amazing photos it takes). I am wondering if the use of a MF nikon lens with an adaptor on the 5D2 wouldn't help a little in terms of getting some (or alot more) control over what the 5D2 is offering stock. I am going this route.

Is there a technical issue here with the setup that may be the reason this is not the right thing to do (Beside the possibility of damaging my very expensive 5D2? Thanks.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Xavier Plagaro

Canon just need to change a couple of lines of code and they can at least give 25p to all PAL users in the world. I love(d) Canon, but if they fail to do this I'll try to find my video recording needs with another company.

Nowadays we vote with our wallets and it would be nice people buy products because the things they DO, not what they CAN/COULD do...

The problem with this approach is you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Let's be realistic. I would not try to sell this camera to someone who is going to shoot a major motion picture. It would be ludicrous. And yet, I am thankful that Canon has introduced something I can actually get some images out of that have the look a feel of 35mm film. When I bought this camera, I was told about its shortcoming.... no 24p, limited users control, etc, etc., And yet, for $ 2700, I had a whole new prespective in my hands and images far superior to the 35mm adapter stuff I had been able to turn out. I jumped at it.

You can say what you want about Canon. Until two years back, I did not own a Canon. Then Canon introduced me to 24p, with the tiny HV20-- for less than $1,000. And now, Canon is introducing me to full frame 35mm film making for under $3,000.

And about taking your wallet elsewhere, get a nice big one. I will wager that once the guts of this camera are put into a video camera by Canon's video division, or by any other manufacturer, you will be looking at a $ 12,000 list price. Sure it will have most of the bells and whistles, but the image rolling out it won't be much different from the 5D's. It will still be that chip (or one similar) and your lens, coupled with your vision that will show on the screen.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Alex Chong

Hi all,

I am sure this may have been discussed before. I am also the proud owner of a 5D2 which has been giving me lots of fun time on the video side of things (Not to mention the amazing photos it takes). I am wondering if the use of a MF nikon lens with an adaptor on the 5D2 wouldn't help a little in terms of getting some (or alot more) control over what the 5D2 is offering stock. I am going this route.

Is there a technical issue here with the setup that may be the reason this is not the right thing to do (Beside the possibility of damaging my very expensive 5D2? Thanks.

Alex, it is a partial solution, and the one I am using. However, Canon owners may already have a large kit of lenses. And image stabilization can be important with this camera too. So you can understand the basic desire to have more control over exposure no matter what direction you go.