julie's mfa show (30p to 24p conversion) at DVinfo.net

Steve S. Kim · March 20th, 2009, 01:05 AM

Julie's MFA Show on Vimeo

I compiled some random footage from my girlfriend's MFA show and I thought it was a good opportunity to learn Premiere. The thing that took the longest was converting the footage from 30p to 24p. I don't really care about the 'film look' aspect of 24p, I just really hate the way vimeo butchers 30p footage.

I'm in the middle of building a rig based on redrock's shouldermount so yes, I won't be handholding forever :).

Potentially useful technical details:

-5d mkii set to neutral -4 contrast -1 saturation
-24-105L with stabilization on is what I use 95% of the time, the rest a 50mm 1.4
-Sound straight from 5d's mic and a little bit of Sennheiser MKE400. No adjustments aside from gain.
-On a Core i7 w/ 6 gigs of ram and 2 Velociraptors raid 0 I couldn't edit the files natively. I tried Cineform but couldn't get it to work, so I ended up with 720p Lagarith which would be smooth for about 30 seconds before it got choppy. It was workable but annoying, so in the future I'd probably work either with 720p uncompressed or with 480p Lagarith proxy files. The latter if space was an issue or if I wanted to render to 1080p.
-Light color correction
-24p conversion done in After Effects with Timewarp (motion blur on 180 degree shutter). Took 6 hours to render 5 minutes. Also tried Twixtor which was 3x faster but it has a slider for motion blur instead of a shutter setting like Timewarp. In the future I'd use Twixtor over Timewarp if I can find a motion blur setting that I like... So much work for Vimeo's idiotic policy :(

and some random creepiness: http://vimeo.com/3427570

Mark Harmer · March 20th, 2009, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve S. Kim

and some random creepiness: Tofu's eye on Vimeo

Ewww........

Mark Harmer · March 20th, 2009, 03:47 AM

..but I love the art show stuff. Nice footage - makes me start to rethink my idea of getting an SGBlade for my XHA1 if I can buy another camera that will do this (and give me a second camera!!)

Jon Fairhurst · March 20th, 2009, 10:56 AM

This must be Tofu's audition tape for Eraserhead II. :)

Evan Donn · March 20th, 2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve S. Kim

-On a Core i7 w/ 6 gigs of ram and 2 Velociraptors raid 0 I couldn't edit the files natively.

That doesn't seem right... I'm editing the native files on my 2.5 Core 2 Duo Macbook pro, running from a 2.5" fw800 drive, and while fullscreen playback can occasionally get a little choppy overall it's definitely workable. The only reason I've had to convert to other formats is I'm still getting clipped blacks/whites even with the latest quicktime update.

Steve S. Kim · March 20th, 2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Harmer

..but I love the art show stuff. Nice footage - makes me start to rethink my idea of getting an SGBlade for my XHA1 if I can buy another camera that will do this (and give me a second camera!!)

I think it depends on the application. I love the quality but since I'm usually shooting 'off the hip' it can get tedious having to readjust exposure constantly instead of being able to just press the record button with consistent settings. Often times I'll record first, adjust later to capture the moment and that's when you have exposure ramping seen in some of the shots. I need to find a better way to correct for that in post.

On the other hand, it's sweet to just have a camera dangling on my neck and being able to hang around and blend in instead of carrying a big camera over my shoulder. Trade-offs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Donn

That doesn't seem right... I'm editing the native files on my 2.5 Core 2 Duo Macbook pro, running from a 2.5" fw800 drive, and while fullscreen playback can occasionally get a little choppy overall it's definitely workable. The only reason I've had to convert to other formats is I'm still getting clipped blacks/whites even with the latest quicktime update.

Well I'm on a PC and Premiere. For sure Premiere doesn't handle the 5D's mov files correctly at all. My girlfriend's macbook plays the files silky smooth in Final Cut Pro. Unfortunately, I'm strictly a PC guy.

Mark Hahn · March 21st, 2009, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve S. Kim

I think it depends on the application. I love the quality but since I'm usually shooting 'off the hip' it can get tedious having to readjust exposure constantly instead of being able to just press the record button with consistent settings. Often times I'll record first, adjust later to capture the moment and that's when you have exposure ramping seen in some of the shots. I need to find a better way to correct for that in post.

On the other hand, it's sweet to just have a camera dangling on my neck and being able to hang around and blend in instead of carrying a big camera over my shoulder. Trade-offs...

Well I'm on a PC and Premiere. For sure Premiere doesn't handle the 5D's mov files correctly at all. My girlfriend's macbook plays the files silky smooth in Final Cut Pro. Unfortunately, I'm strictly a PC guy.

What does cineform say about your problem? They got me going and I am very happy with neo scene now.

Joshua Fulton · March 21st, 2009, 07:06 PM

Hey Steve, in the notes to your video you seemed to say that it was Vimeo's 'policy' that the footage you upload has to be in 24p. I didn't think this was the policy. I thought, if anything, Vimeo actually converted things to 24p. Am I wrong about this?

Thanks.

Jon Fairhurst · March 21st, 2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Fulton

...I thought, if anything, Vimeo actually converted things to 24p...

My understanding is that they drop frames, if you deliver more than 24 fps.

Joshua Fulton · March 23rd, 2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

My understanding is that they drop frames, if you deliver more than 24 fps.

Oooh. Complicated.

Brant Gajda · March 23rd, 2009, 09:59 AM

Something seems wrong with your system. I can "almost" edit the native h264 files from the Canon 5D Mark II with my system without rendering. Using Cineform, I can edit them without rendering unless I apply a complicated filter.

I'm using a i7 920 processor overclocked to 3.2GHz. 12GB of memory and NVidia 260 graphics card.

Joe Darmon · March 23rd, 2009, 10:28 AM

I think its all in the app. I use sony vegas 8.0 and 8.1. When I down convert to 24P I get no choppiness of playback, or any creeping, ghosting, etc. The only issue I have ever had is a combing effect because I forgot to go from I to P before rendering. I personally prefer vegas for HD/HDV/DV editing. Its got the fastest DV render in the industry, and its not bad on HDV renders either. Average DV render is 1:1 or 1.5:1 on time. HDV is 1.5:1 with no FX, and can go as high as 8:1 if you have 6 or more effects nested on a single event. Might want to try the trial version on the website and see if it gives you better results. PM me for the codec and settings that are ideal. I don't know about adobe, but vegas has a 2:3 pull down setting, is helps to avoid dropping frames. If what you submit is 24P, it won't drop frames.

Mark Hahn · March 23rd, 2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brant Gajda

Something seems wrong with your system. I can "almost" edit the native h264 files from the Canon 5D Mark II with my system without rendering. Using Cineform, I can edit them without rendering unless I apply a complicated filter.

I'm using a i7 920 processor overclocked to 3.2GHz. 12GB of memory and NVidia 260 graphics card.

You didn't mention your disk. With cineform and other formats like that, they reduce the load on the cpu and increase the load on the disk. May I suggest at least a 7200 rpm striped raid?

Brant Gajda · March 23rd, 2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

You didn't mention your disk. With cineform and other formats like that, they reduce the load on the cpu and increase the load on the disk. May I suggest at least a 7200 rpm striped raid?

I'm using 2 - 500GB Seagate 7200 RPM 32MB cache drives. I do not have them in any RAID format. I just ordered a couple 1 Terabyte Western Digital drives ($89/each with free shipping) which I plan on doing a RAID 0.

Steve S. Kim · March 23rd, 2009, 02:15 PM

Yes vimeo's policy is to drop frames for HD footage. They retain 30fps for SD footage. Their reasoning is that 24fps requires a lot less bandwidth and cpu and that when they did their tests (like a year or more ago) 24fps was more likely to run smoothly on the average computer vs 30fps.

Of course a lot has changed since vimeo's inception but their arcane policy is still in place. Fingers crossed for change.

As for the choppy native 5d playback, my system is specifically vista 64bit with premiere pro cs4. I haven't tested it with any other NLE's. Playback through ffdshow, vlc player, coreavc, and quicktime viewer is all very smooth with a minimal cpu hit. My previous box was vista 32bit with core2 quad and I had the same problem with premiere cs4 and 5d files.

Mark: I haven't tried contacting cineform. I tried it both in mac and windows and had issues with both and didn't go beyond that. I'll probably look at it again with their next major revision.

March 20th, 2009, 01:05 AM	#1
Steve S. Kim Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: los angeles, ca Posts: 35	julie's mfa show (30p to 24p conversion) Julie's MFA Show on Vimeo I compiled some random footage from my girlfriend's MFA show and I thought it was a good opportunity to learn Premiere. The thing that took the longest was converting the footage from 30p to 24p. I don't really care about the 'film look' aspect of 24p, I just really hate the way vimeo butchers 30p footage. I'm in the middle of building a rig based on redrock's shouldermount so yes, I won't be handholding forever :). Potentially useful technical details: -5d mkii set to neutral -4 contrast -1 saturation -24-105L with stabilization on is what I use 95% of the time, the rest a 50mm 1.4 -Sound straight from 5d's mic and a little bit of Sennheiser MKE400. No adjustments aside from gain. -On a Core i7 w/ 6 gigs of ram and 2 Velociraptors raid 0 I couldn't edit the files natively. I tried Cineform but couldn't get it to work, so I ended up with 720p Lagarith which would be smooth for about 30 seconds before it got choppy. It was workable but annoying, so in the future I'd probably work either with 720p uncompressed or with 480p Lagarith proxy files. The latter if space was an issue or if I wanted to render to 1080p. -Light color correction -24p conversion done in After Effects with Timewarp (motion blur on 180 degree shutter). Took 6 hours to render 5 minutes. Also tried Twixtor which was 3x faster but it has a slider for motion blur instead of a shutter setting like Timewarp. In the future I'd use Twixtor over Timewarp if I can find a motion blur setting that I like... So much work for Vimeo's idiotic policy :( and some random creepiness: http://vimeo.com/3427570 __________________ stevekim.net, blog Last edited by Steve S. Kim; March 20th, 2009 at 01:38 AM.

March 20th, 2009, 10:56 AM	#4
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	This must be Tofu's audition tape for Eraserhead II. :) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 23rd, 2009, 10:28 AM	#12
Joe Darmon New Boot Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 8	All in the app I think its all in the app. I use sony vegas 8.0 and 8.1. When I down convert to 24P I get no choppiness of playback, or any creeping, ghosting, etc. The only issue I have ever had is a combing effect because I forgot to go from I to P before rendering. I personally prefer vegas for HD/HDV/DV editing. Its got the fastest DV render in the industry, and its not bad on HDV renders either. Average DV render is 1:1 or 1.5:1 on time. HDV is 1.5:1 with no FX, and can go as high as 8:1 if you have 6 or more effects nested on a single event. Might want to try the trial version on the website and see if it gives you better results. PM me for the codec and settings that are ideal. I don't know about adobe, but vegas has a 2:3 pull down setting, is helps to avoid dropping frames. If what you submit is 24P, it won't drop frames.

March 23rd, 2009, 02:15 PM	#15
Steve S. Kim Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: los angeles, ca Posts: 35	Yes vimeo's policy is to drop frames for HD footage. They retain 30fps for SD footage. Their reasoning is that 24fps requires a lot less bandwidth and cpu and that when they did their tests (like a year or more ago) 24fps was more likely to run smoothly on the average computer vs 30fps. Of course a lot has changed since vimeo's inception but their arcane policy is still in place. Fingers crossed for change. As for the choppy native 5d playback, my system is specifically vista 64bit with premiere pro cs4. I haven't tested it with any other NLE's. Playback through ffdshow, vlc player, coreavc, and quicktime viewer is all very smooth with a minimal cpu hit. My previous box was vista 32bit with core2 quad and I had the same problem with premiere cs4 and 5d files. Mark: I haven't tried contacting cineform. I tried it both in mac and windows and had issues with both and didn't go beyond that. I'll probably look at it again with their next major revision. __________________ stevekim.net, blog

March 20th, 2009, 03:47 AM	#3
Mark Harmer Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Moreton in Marsh, United Kingdom Posts: 96	..but I love the art show stuff. Nice footage - makes me start to rethink my idea of getting an SGBlade for my XHA1 if I can buy another camera that will do this (and give me a second camera!!)

March 21st, 2009, 07:06 PM	#8
Joshua Fulton Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Union Co., New Jersey Posts: 26	Hey Steve, in the notes to your video you seemed to say that it was Vimeo's 'policy' that the footage you upload has to be in 24p. I didn't think this was the policy. I thought, if anything, Vimeo actually converted things to 24p. Am I wrong about this? Thanks.

March 23rd, 2009, 09:59 AM	#11
Brant Gajda Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 113	Something seems wrong with your system. I can "almost" edit the native h264 files from the Canon 5D Mark II with my system without rendering. Using Cineform, I can edit them without rendering unless I apply a complicated filter. I'm using a i7 920 processor overclocked to 3.2GHz. 12GB of memory and NVidia 260 graphics card.