Neo Scene 1.1.2 (Win) with better 5D support

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 10:08 AM

I just processed my first clips using NeoScene and Vegas 8.0c . I had already processed these clips as mov files straight out of the 5D Mark II and output them as 1920 x 1080 HD.
I processed them with NeoScene using the Main Concept codec and also the Sony AVC codec. The render time was a lot faster but both clips look faded (much lower contrast) then the clips processed without NeoScene as native 5D mov files. Is this to be expected or is there something I need to change?

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 11:10 AM

I should have mentioned that the initial conversion out of NeoScene is fine and there is no noticable lost of contrast. The reduced contrast happens when I render these converted files from Vegas as Mpeg-4 HD files.

David Newman · March 14th, 2009, 02:50 PM

This is a Vegas display issue/design choice, as it defaults to displaying black to level 16 not zero. The MOV import is getting this wrong and the older Neo Scene did also. If you prefer to preview black at 0, there is the video system RGB to compter graphic RGB filters, add maybe similar controls in the Vegas Setup. You will notice the Neo Scene desktop playback is correct so it just the way Vegas defaults.

Jon Fairhurst · March 14th, 2009, 02:53 PM

What version of Quicktime do you have? QT 7.6 captures the whites and blacks, but boosts the mid tones. Earlier versions of QT crop the blacks and whites. Sure, it increases contrast, but crushes blacks and whites.

The best way to use Vegas, if you don't have Neo Scene, is to Open QT and export your MOV files as MP4s. You will lose the audio, so keep your MOVs. Make sure to "rewrap" when saving as an MP4. It's fast, as there is no re-encoding.

In Vegas, you will need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB filter to your clips or tracks, if your project is in 8-bit mode. The files will then render properly in most cases. That should be your baseline. If you want a different contrast, apply your own color curves, levels, gamma and so on to taste.

When using Neo Scene, you should be able to confirm that the levels are the same as your baseline. You may also need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB to get everything to match.

With Neo Scene you won't lose your audio, and editing is MUCH faster than with MOVs or MP4s.

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

This is a Vegas display issue/design choice, as it defaults to displaying black to level 16 not zero. The MOV import is getting this wrong and the older Neo Scene did also. If you prefer to preview black at 0, there is the video system RGB to compter graphic RGB filters, add maybe similar controls in the Vegas Setup. You will notice the Neo Scene desktop playback is correct so it just the way Vegas defaults.

So why doesn't Vegas default to this when I use the mov files right out of the 5D?

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

What version of Quicktime do you have? QT 7.6 captures the whites and blacks, but boosts the mid tones. Earlier versions of QT crop the blacks and whites. Sure, it increases contrast, but crushes blacks and whites.

The best way to use Vegas, if you don't have Neo Scene, is to Open QT and export your MOV files as MP4s. You will lose the audio, so keep your MOVs. Make sure to "rewrap" when saving as an MP4. It's fast, as there is no re-encoding.

In Vegas, you will need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB filter to your clips or tracks, if your project is in 8-bit mode. The files will then render properly in most cases. That should be your baseline. If you want a different contrast, apply your own color curves, levels, gamma and so on to taste.

When using Neo Scene, you should be able to confirm that the levels are the same as your baseline. You may also need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB to get everything to match.

With Neo Scene you won't lose your audio, and editing is MUCH faster than with MOVs or MP4s.

I have the latest version of Quicktime Pro. I am going to do another test rendering a clip right out of the camera to the same output format and see what I get. The other clips were rendered on a 32 bit Vista computer 2 months ago just to make sure something hasn't changed that doesn't involve NeoScene.

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 05:25 PM

Can someone describe what this crushed black issue will look like. In some clips that I converted a few months ago, they have greater contrast, darker blacks, etc. It is a scene of a river during a snow storm with falling snow. In the same clips that I converted today there is less contrast but perhaps it looks more natural. I have them both burned to a BD-RE disc was was viewing them on a large HD TV.

I was just beginning to learn Vegas and processed 3 clips, was concerned about the preview quality and the amount of time it took to render. Put that on the back burner and built a new I7 Vista 64 bit PC, and have finally come back to playing with the video clips in Vegas trying NeoScene to see if I should get it. It is nice to render things in a very short amount of time. I am trying to sort all this out and keep it all straight in my mind at the same time.

David Newman · March 14th, 2009, 05:30 PM

Last 3 blog posts discuss the 5D black levels : CineForm Insider

Andy Todzia · March 14th, 2009, 06:03 PM

I started reading your blog and I thought I should ask this question. I have CoreAVC installed on my computer. (I bought the Pro version because when I tried NEO HD? a few months ago with no luck, the tech person told me to get it)

Is CoreAVC going to cause any problems using NeoScene or anything else. Is it good to keep it installed. If so, are there any particular settings I should make sure I have on or off?

David Newman · March 14th, 2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Todzia

I started reading your blog and I thought I should ask this question. I have CoreAVC installed on my computer. (I bought the Pro version because when I tried NEO HD? a few months ago with no luck, the tech person told me to get it)

Is CoreAVC going to cause any problems using NeoScene or anything else. Is it good to keep it installed. If so, are there any particular settings I should make sure I have on or off?

CoreAVC is not used by NeoScene, so there are no conflicts.

Andy Todzia · March 15th, 2009, 04:57 PM

Everything is sorted out now and I ended up ordering NeoScene. I tired rendering the same 3 clips under Vista 64 bit using Vegas Pro 8.1 ,without NeoScene, and when the minutes remaining settled down (I cancelled the render) the total time to render would have been about 45 minutes for about 3 1/2 minutes of video with no special effects, rendering as 1920x1080 HD, mpeg-4, I believe around 20 or 25 MBps.

Doing this using Vegas 8.0c and NeoScene with similar high settings the render was 8 - 12 minutes. I was doing different tests and didn't write things down.

Travis Rattley · March 14th, 2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Went out to test my new 5D2 today, and when I returned, found the new NeoScene info. I downloaded and used for this test edit....

The Couple on Vimeo

YouTube - TheCouple

Question: I have downloaded the trail version on my MAC 10.5... and it transcode the video fine...however, I get no audio? Did I do some wrong or do I need a plugin?

David Newman · March 14th, 2010, 09:04 PM

No idea. And you not likely to get an answer posting to an old thread discussing the Window version only. Post a new thread, or ask support directly. Support Center

Sean Seah · March 16th, 2010, 10:10 AM

David, do we need an update with the new 5D2 firmware? I see a claim that it would work as per the 7D. Keeping my fingers crossed. No time to try it yet.

David Newman · March 16th, 2010, 09:35 PM

I likely made that claim, and I expect it to work. Need new 5D MOVs clips to test.

March 14th, 2009, 02:50 PM	#48
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	This is a Vegas display issue/design choice, as it defaults to displaying black to level 16 not zero. The MOV import is getting this wrong and the older Neo Scene did also. If you prefer to preview black at 0, there is the video system RGB to compter graphic RGB filters, add maybe similar controls in the Vegas Setup. You will notice the Neo Scene desktop playback is correct so it just the way Vegas defaults. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 14th, 2009, 02:53 PM	#49
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	What version of Quicktime do you have? QT 7.6 captures the whites and blacks, but boosts the mid tones. Earlier versions of QT crop the blacks and whites. Sure, it increases contrast, but crushes blacks and whites. The best way to use Vegas, if you don't have Neo Scene, is to Open QT and export your MOV files as MP4s. You will lose the audio, so keep your MOVs. Make sure to "rewrap" when saving as an MP4. It's fast, as there is no re-encoding. In Vegas, you will need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB filter to your clips or tracks, if your project is in 8-bit mode. The files will then render properly in most cases. That should be your baseline. If you want a different contrast, apply your own color curves, levels, gamma and so on to taste. When using Neo Scene, you should be able to confirm that the levels are the same as your baseline. You may also need to apply the Computer -> Studio RGB to get everything to match. With Neo Scene you won't lose your audio, and editing is MUCH faster than with MOVs or MP4s. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 14th, 2009, 05:30 PM	#53
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Last 3 blog posts discuss the 5D black levels : CineForm Insider __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 14th, 2010, 09:04 PM	#58
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	No idea. And you not likely to get an answer posting to an old thread discussing the Window version only. Post a new thread, or ask support directly. Support Center __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 16th, 2010, 10:10 AM	#59
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	David, do we need an update with the new 5D2 firmware? I see a claim that it would work as per the 7D. Keeping my fingers crossed. No time to try it yet. __________________ Firewerkz Films SGP

March 14th, 2009, 10:08 AM	#46
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	I just processed my first clips using NeoScene and Vegas 8.0c . I had already processed these clips as mov files straight out of the 5D Mark II and output them as 1920 x 1080 HD. I processed them with NeoScene using the Main Concept codec and also the Sony AVC codec. The render time was a lot faster but both clips look faded (much lower contrast) then the clips processed without NeoScene as native 5D mov files. Is this to be expected or is there something I need to change?

March 14th, 2009, 11:10 AM	#47
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	I should have mentioned that the initial conversion out of NeoScene is fine and there is no noticable lost of contrast. The reduced contrast happens when I render these converted files from Vegas as Mpeg-4 HD files.

March 14th, 2009, 05:25 PM	#52
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	Can someone describe what this crushed black issue will look like. In some clips that I converted a few months ago, they have greater contrast, darker blacks, etc. It is a scene of a river during a snow storm with falling snow. In the same clips that I converted today there is less contrast but perhaps it looks more natural. I have them both burned to a BD-RE disc was was viewing them on a large HD TV. I was just beginning to learn Vegas and processed 3 clips, was concerned about the preview quality and the amount of time it took to render. Put that on the back burner and built a new I7 Vista 64 bit PC, and have finally come back to playing with the video clips in Vegas trying NeoScene to see if I should get it. It is nice to render things in a very short amount of time. I am trying to sort all this out and keep it all straight in my mind at the same time.

March 14th, 2009, 06:03 PM	#54
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	I started reading your blog and I thought I should ask this question. I have CoreAVC installed on my computer. (I bought the Pro version because when I tried NEO HD? a few months ago with no luck, the tech person told me to get it) Is CoreAVC going to cause any problems using NeoScene or anything else. Is it good to keep it installed. If so, are there any particular settings I should make sure I have on or off?

March 15th, 2009, 04:57 PM	#56
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	Everything is sorted out now and I ended up ordering NeoScene. I tired rendering the same 3 clips under Vista 64 bit using Vegas Pro 8.1 ,without NeoScene, and when the minutes remaining settled down (I cancelled the render) the total time to render would have been about 45 minutes for about 3 1/2 minutes of video with no special effects, rendering as 1920x1080 HD, mpeg-4, I believe around 20 or 25 MBps. Doing this using Vegas 8.0c and NeoScene with similar high settings the render was 8 - 12 minutes. I was doing different tests and didn't write things down.

March 16th, 2010, 09:35 PM	#60
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I likely made that claim, and I expect it to work. Need new 5D MOVs clips to test. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman