25p: what's more likely new model or firmware upgrade? at DVinfo.net

Kalunga Lima · February 21st, 2009, 11:01 PM

I'm probably not the only one who is wondering if it's safe to get a 5D Mark II now and expect a firmware upgrade with 25p soon, or if I will have to wait for a new version. Is 25p something that can actually be implemented through firmware?

I think I would accept that 5D MkIIs sold in Europe and other PAL countries only have 25p capability... like in the old days for video cameras, but that the 30p model be the only choice does little to foster brand loyalty.

I wish Canon would issue some kind of statement on the subject. As a loyal Canon user for over 30 years (AE1, A1, Rebel, 1n, 30D, 450D) with a reasonable investment in Canon EF lenses, I feel that a purchase of this nature should not be a gamble.

Jon Fairhurst · February 22nd, 2009, 12:36 PM

I think Canon's two biggest motivators for a firmware update are:

1) The current auto exposure situation sells Nikon lenses, and
2) 30p-only is deeply insulting to the entire European market.

I would be surprised if manual control can't be added in firmware, but I'm not so sure about the signal processing chain.

Possibilities are:

A) We get a firmware update soon,
B) We get a firmware update after inventories start to grow, or
C) Canon brings the 5D MkIII to market.

I'm still hoping for A, if not B. And I hope that both 1 and 2 (and 24p) are solved. Path C would almost certainly drive me and my growing Nikon lens collection to a future Nikon body (or Scarlet), rather than a MkIII.

Daniel Browning · February 23rd, 2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalunga Lima

...safe to get a 5D Mark II now and expect a firmware upgrade with 25p soon[?]

Danger Will Robinson. Definitely not safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalunga Lima

Is 25p something that can actually be implemented through firmware?

I haven't read any commentary by sensor designers one way or the other; however, most guesses, including mine, is that it is possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalunga Lima

25p: what's more likely new model or firmware upgrade?

A new model is far more likely IMHO.

Steve Maller · February 23rd, 2009, 01:17 AM

Despite being a happy 5D Mark II owner, I sadly believe that the true realization of the camera's potential is going to come in a true video camera, not in a firmware update. It just doesn't make business sense for Canon to cannibalize their entire video product line (or at least the high end of it) with a still camera body.

Max Worm · February 23rd, 2009, 01:52 AM

If they wanted to put a limitation to the video of this cam because l' they have only made for the half of the market? (PAL). It does not have sense. And it does not have sense that in order to use the 5d in manual way I must buy the objectives of the competition number: nikon. This is a stupid thing! Possible that they have underrated l' use video of this reflex? And then in order to use it to 25fps I make a conversion with COLOR and comes very well. Therefore however the limitations are succeeded to exceed all that have tax. But the history of 25fps own not l' I have happens! I live in Italy and the colleagues take to me in turn because they see to me to use this reflex in order to make video, to the place of mine xlh1. then when they see the result are astonished! Excused my English. Ciao

Holger Neuhaeuser · February 23rd, 2009, 02:31 AM

I think, that the people at canon who designed the 5D MK2 belong to the photo division , not the video division.
That means first of all they watch the sales of people who bought this camera as a photo camera. I´m pretty shure that the photo market is a lot bigger than the pro-video market.

And seen from this point of view the camera is already a hit. So they´re not really upset that a relatively small amount of people switch to nikon optics. Let´s face it, people who are willing to take such a lot of workarounds are video freaks, and independent filmers.

No pro would take the 5dmk2 for a feature film by now. You just can´t risk that clients or actors see you fiddling around with strange rites and gadgets to get you´re fstop and shutter fixed, and that after every take. A documentary where you need to have a small unobvious camera would be an exeption. And very low budget image films where you can convince people that they get something for the money they wouldn´t get otherwise.

So I think canon´s video department is very interested in this market study that becomes visible by the fact which people buy the camera for what purpose.

And shurely they´ll build some monster mixed out of the 5dmk2 and their biggest prosumer camera.

25 frames wouldn´t endanger their video department, but full manual control would.
So what we get will in my eyes be a 25p upgrade if we are lucky, but that´s it.

Holger

Daniel Ridicki · February 23rd, 2009, 05:57 AM

Quote:

And then in order to use it to 25fps I make a conversion with COLOR and comes very well.

How do you convert 30 fps to 25 fps? I am in the same PAL boat and am very interested of other people's experience. Thanks.

Jon Fairhurst · February 23rd, 2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holger Neuhaeuser

...So they´re not really upset that a relatively small amount of people switch to nikon optics. Let´s face it, people who are willing to take such a lot of workarounds are video freaks, and independent filmers.

I disagree. I spoke with one Canon rep at CES and complained that the lack of manual control pushed me toward Nikon lenses. There was a small audience listening. The guy's eyes nervously shifted back and forth, he found a Canon guy standing alone, and he directed me to talk with that guy. It was clear that this rep didn't want any potential customers to hear the Nikon lens story.

And then there's the Canon review site that doesn't allow talk of other lenses being used.

It's pretty clear that this is a sore spot for Canon. (It's certainly a sore spot for 5D MkII owners.) The only way they can silence the talk of Nikon lenses on this cam is to offer the firmware update. Without the update, they are creating actively anti-loyal customers.

Chris Barcellos · February 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM

I have to agree to some extent with Jon. My case is an example. I bought body only, because I have a suit case full of Nikon glass. If if Canon rigged it that just Canon lenses would work with a full manual, I would have bought the package, and would be shopping for other Canon lenses. They are losing that market...

Michael Murie · February 23rd, 2009, 12:21 PM

If I were you, I would wait. I don't think anyone knows if they will add 25p support; they may, but I don't think it's worth the risk right now if that's the primary reason for buying the camera.

Dylan Couper · February 23rd, 2009, 01:21 PM

Playing the waiting game with higher end Canon cameras can mean years. If you need it now, buy it now.

Joe Wentrup · February 23rd, 2009, 01:23 PM

Al least they could give us something that simple as a setting memory - to make settings repeatable in various shots after having tricked the camera into the settings you were looking for.

Max Worm · February 23rd, 2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ridicki

How do you convert 30 fps to 25 fps? I am in the same PAL boat and am very interested of other people's experience. Thanks.

It must transform all the single ones clip before inziare to work on FCP2. They are imported on COLOR and every single one clip goes modified to 25 fps in the setting. From the way to rendering. At the end the clip will be found modified in the cartellina of rendering. I hope to me to be expressed well. Hello

Daniel Ridicki · February 23rd, 2009, 02:26 PM

... grazie mille!

Ryan Koo · February 23rd, 2009, 03:37 PM

I just ordered a 5dMkII with the hope that 25p will be added some day, either by Canon or via a firmware hack. That said, I'm looking at using the camera for an internet production, so 30p will be acceptable if there is never a 24p/25p solution. I wouldn't order the camera if I absolutely NEEDED 25p, because in my experience companies like Canon tend to look at their product lifecycle and realize that 24p/25p could be a "must have" feature in their NEXT model (and thus give users a reason to upgrade). They're certainly not having any problems moving the 5dMkII now. I'd love to be proved wrong, though!

There's been a lot of wishful thinking on the firmware hacking front, but so far I've not seen anyone with any real experience say they're actively working on it.

While I wait for my backordered camera to ship, I'm also curious to see if Nikon will announce a D800 at PMA next week with HD video...

February 21st, 2009, 11:01 PM	#1
Kalunga Lima Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Luanda - ANGOLA & Lisbon - PORTUGAL Posts: 160	25p: what's more likely new model or firmware upgrade? I'm probably not the only one who is wondering if it's safe to get a 5D Mark II now and expect a firmware upgrade with 25p soon, or if I will have to wait for a new version. Is 25p something that can actually be implemented through firmware? I think I would accept that 5D MkIIs sold in Europe and other PAL countries only have 25p capability... like in the old days for video cameras, but that the 30p model be the only choice does little to foster brand loyalty. I wish Canon would issue some kind of statement on the subject. As a loyal Canon user for over 30 years (AE1, A1, Rebel, 1n, 30D, 450D) with a reasonable investment in Canon EF lenses, I feel that a purchase of this nature should not be a gamble. __________________ Kalunga Lima PMW-350, PDW-F350, PDW-EX1, MacBookPro, MacPro 8-Core, Final Cut Studio 2, Canon 5D MkII

February 22nd, 2009, 12:36 PM	#2
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I think Canon's two biggest motivators for a firmware update are: 1) The current auto exposure situation sells Nikon lenses, and 2) 30p-only is deeply insulting to the entire European market. I would be surprised if manual control can't be added in firmware, but I'm not so sure about the signal processing chain. Possibilities are: A) We get a firmware update soon, B) We get a firmware update after inventories start to grow, or C) Canon brings the 5D MkIII to market. I'm still hoping for A, if not B. And I hope that both 1 and 2 (and 24p) are solved. Path C would almost certainly drive me and my growing Nikon lens collection to a future Nikon body (or Scarlet), rather than a MkIII. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 23rd, 2009, 01:17 AM	#4
Steve Maller Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Burlingame, CA USA Posts: 285	Despite being a happy 5D Mark II owner, I sadly believe that the true realization of the camera's potential is going to come in a true video camera, not in a firmware update. It just doesn't make business sense for Canon to cannibalize their entire video product line (or at least the high end of it) with a still camera body. __________________ me@facebook: http://facebook.com/stevemallerphotography

February 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I have to agree to some extent with Jon. My case is an example. I bought body only, because I have a suit case full of Nikon glass. If if Canon rigged it that just Canon lenses would work with a full manual, I would have bought the package, and would be shopping for other Canon lenses. They are losing that market... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

February 23rd, 2009, 12:21 PM	#10
Michael Murie Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Woburn, MA Posts: 205	If I were you, I would wait. I don't think anyone knows if they will add 25p support; they may, but I don't think it's worth the risk right now if that's the primary reason for buying the camera. Last edited by Michael Murie; February 23rd, 2009 at 02:25 PM.

February 23rd, 2009, 01:52 AM	#5
Max Worm New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Rome (Italy) Posts: 20	If they wanted to put a limitation to the video of this cam because l' they have only made for the half of the market? (PAL). It does not have sense. And it does not have sense that in order to use the 5d in manual way I must buy the objectives of the competition number: nikon. This is a stupid thing! Possible that they have underrated l' use video of this reflex? And then in order to use it to 25fps I make a conversion with COLOR and comes very well. Therefore however the limitations are succeeded to exceed all that have tax. But the history of 25fps own not l' I have happens! I live in Italy and the colleagues take to me in turn because they see to me to use this reflex in order to make video, to the place of mine xlh1. then when they see the result are astonished! Excused my English. Ciao

February 23rd, 2009, 02:31 AM	#6
Holger Neuhaeuser Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Munich Germany Posts: 37	I think, that the people at canon who designed the 5D MK2 belong to the photo division , not the video division. That means first of all they watch the sales of people who bought this camera as a photo camera. I´m pretty shure that the photo market is a lot bigger than the pro-video market. And seen from this point of view the camera is already a hit. So they´re not really upset that a relatively small amount of people switch to nikon optics. Let´s face it, people who are willing to take such a lot of workarounds are video freaks, and independent filmers. No pro would take the 5dmk2 for a feature film by now. You just can´t risk that clients or actors see you fiddling around with strange rites and gadgets to get you´re fstop and shutter fixed, and that after every take. A documentary where you need to have a small unobvious camera would be an exeption. And very low budget image films where you can convince people that they get something for the money they wouldn´t get otherwise. So I think canon´s video department is very interested in this market study that becomes visible by the fact which people buy the camera for what purpose. And shurely they´ll build some monster mixed out of the 5dmk2 and their biggest prosumer camera. 25 frames wouldn´t endanger their video department, but full manual control would. So what we get will in my eyes be a 25p upgrade if we are lucky, but that´s it. Holger

February 23rd, 2009, 01:21 PM	#11
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Playing the waiting game with higher end Canon cameras can mean years. If you need it now, buy it now. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

February 23rd, 2009, 01:23 PM	#12
Joe Wentrup Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Santo Domingo Dominican Republic Posts: 27	Al least they could give us something that simple as a setting memory - to make settings repeatable in various shots after having tricked the camera into the settings you were looking for.

February 23rd, 2009, 02:26 PM	#14
Daniel Ridicki Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 124	Max... ... grazie mille!

February 23rd, 2009, 03:37 PM	#15
Ryan Koo Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 92	I just ordered a 5dMkII with the hope that 25p will be added some day, either by Canon or via a firmware hack. That said, I'm looking at using the camera for an internet production, so 30p will be acceptable if there is never a 24p/25p solution. I wouldn't order the camera if I absolutely NEEDED 25p, because in my experience companies like Canon tend to look at their product lifecycle and realize that 24p/25p could be a "must have" feature in their NEXT model (and thus give users a reason to upgrade). They're certainly not having any problems moving the 5dMkII now. I'd love to be proved wrong, though! There's been a lot of wishful thinking on the firmware hacking front, but so far I've not seen anyone with any real experience say they're actively working on it. While I wait for my backordered camera to ship, I'm also curious to see if Nikon will announce a D800 at PMA next week with HD video...