CineForm supports 5D Mk II editing

David Newman · March 27th, 2009, 07:44 PM

It is limitation of the API Vegas uses to read third party AVI files.

Yang Wen · March 27th, 2009, 10:58 PM

Oh Ok.. so we can just disregard it and render everything as progressive.. ?

David Newman · March 28th, 2009, 09:04 AM

Yes. Vegas users have had no issues with this in the past.

Alvise Tedesco · April 4th, 2009, 08:37 AM

Hi David.
I'm looking for a viable workflow for the 5D.
I'm on a Mac and I need 25p output.
My actual workflow gives good quality but it is really time consuming (7h for 4min.):
Duplicate a clip (keep original for audio). Conform duplicated clip to 25p via cinema tools (overcrank by 5 frames). Convert in Compressor to prores 25p retiming at 83,334% (Apple optical flow. Set "best" under rate conversion tab).
Edit.

Do Cineform gives me something better and quicker?
Thanks

edit: just found this, thanks
"That 24p conversion is designed for HDV or 60i AVCHD sources. 30p to 24p doesn't work all the well, so I would recommend post processing for 24p conversions of 5D footage."

Peter Chigmaroff · April 7th, 2009, 11:44 AM

I've downloaded the trial version of Neo Scene. My needs are fairly simple; take a 5DII clip, edit and generate a PhotoJPG.mov file. I tried MPEG Streamclip but it seems to darken down the original clip excessively and requires too much fiddling to get it right. Neo Scene conversions look nearly perfect. However they don't play on my older PowerPC which I guess is no big deal. I import into iMovie on a Intel mac, edit and output with QT. Neo Scene conversion become jittery and darken down excessively. Tests show that it's QT that darkens the clip. I tried deinterlacing the clip in Neo Scene and that seems to clean up the jittering problem mostly. Is there a a workflow for me on my Mac that would allow me to get a proper PhotoJPG .mov file? QT seems a real wrecking crew with these converted 5DII files. Within iMovie the Neo Scene converted clips look awesome but I can't get them into the real world still looking that way. Many thanks

David Newman · April 7th, 2009, 12:54 PM

Why convert to PhotoJPG, particularly when the CineForm compresssed output looks so much better? The CineForm decoder is free any anyone who needs it (Intel Mac & PC.) Our Mac guy is out this week, so I can't address you particular questions -- like how to make QT behave.

Peter Chigmaroff · April 7th, 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Why convert to PhotoJPG, particularly when the CineForm compresssed output looks so much better? The CineForm decoder is free any anyone who needs it (Intel Mac & PC.) Our Mac guy is out this week, so I can't address you particular questions -- like how to make QT behave.

David,

Thanks for the feedback. It seems PhotoJPEG is a standard for a lot of agencies that sell video clips. I'm only now building my workflow and can't seem to get around the use of QT at the moment. I agree, the clips from the Neo Scene convertor look beautiful but how do I edit them and then get them into a format that is acceptable while maintaining that beauty?

I should note here that I don't necessarily like using QT, it just seems to be the de-facto program for converting to PhotoJPG. If I can do it another way that would be fine too. I guess I don't want to buy FCE or FCP only to find that if I want this format after all the expense and work that they summon QT to do the final conversion and end up with blah results all over again.

Jon Fairhurst · April 7th, 2009, 04:32 PM

I think the right workflow is:

1) Transcode the original MOV files to Cineform.

2) Back up either the originals, or the Cineform files. (The originals are smaller, but recovery will be simpler from the Cineform files.)

3) Edit.

4) Save your project. (Early and often - and back it up.)

5) Render to any and all delivery formats (Blu-ray, DVD, M-JPEG, whatever.)

The bottom line is that your capture, intermediate and delivery formats can be completely separate. Just don't ask how... I'm a Windows/Vegas user.

Sean Seah · April 29th, 2009, 08:34 AM

Hi Folks, just tried Neoscene 1.2.1 and still find the avi washed out in Vegas Pro 8c. Does anyone have the problems?

David Newman · April 29th, 2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Seah

Hi Folks, just tried Neoscene 1.2.1 and still find the avi washed out in Vegas Pro 8c. Does anyone have the problems?

That means it is working correctly. This is an old bug or feature of Vegas, it display black at 16 and white at 235, not 0 and 255 like other applications. So when it looks washed out, that is Vegas working as designed. To see as normal, add the color correction filter Video Systems RGB to Computer RGB.

P.S. I only wish I could get paid from Sony for every support call we have to do regarding this, as CineForm is one of the few codecs that handles this correctly, we get the most support calls.

Sean Seah · April 29th, 2009, 07:33 PM

Now that is great news David! You will see my Neoscene order ;)
For the benefit of other Vegas users, I will list the workflow in Vegas in a new thread and hopefully it will reduce your "Out of scope" calls!

Jon Fairhurst · April 29th, 2009, 11:24 PM

Just to clarify, there is no need to add the Computer RGB correction. The proper way to use Vegas is to calibrate your monitor for Studio (16-235) levels.

If you add the Computer RGB filter, Vegas will render your output improperly, crushing your blacks and whites.

Of course, if your monitor is calibrated for 0-255, you can *temporarily* add the conversion to see how the output will look. Just make sure to turn it off before you render.

Bill Binder · April 30th, 2009, 11:42 AM

Could I ask a question on this?

If your intended distribution target is video for the web (specifically in my case usually Flash), should I stay within the 16-235 range or can I be in the 0-255 range?

Jon Fairhurst · April 30th, 2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Binder

Could I ask a question on this?

If your intended distribution target is video for the web (specifically in my case usually Flash), should I stay within the 16-235 range or can I be in the 0-255 range?

Hi Bill,

You're right. The end goal is 0-255 for web viewing. The answer on how to encode is "it depends."

I've done VP6 (Flash) encoding by encoding to DV from Vegas, and then transcoding with Flash 6 or Sorenson Squeeze. Flash 6 would stretch to 0-255 automatically - in fact it would crush the blacks even further to reduce noise. Sorenson offered a few options. So, it depends on your target and your signal flow.

In general, Vegas expects 16-235 for 8-bit projects, so start there. Test your final product and adjust as needed. Maybe it's best to render your final edit to a Cineform master, and then encode that as needed to other formats. It really depends on your tools and your target.

Bill Binder · April 30th, 2009, 03:03 PM

I've been experimenting a little with the intermediate vs. proxy thing (i.e., rendering final output from the intermediate or from the originals essentially). I've also toyed with using a Cineform master for final render to end formats, but I'm using the built in Cineform in Vegas, so I tend to avoid extra generations.

But for flash encoding, I've had the same basic workflow for a while now, which is to frameserve directly from vegas to the Flash encoder app. Works great.

BTW, here's my latest effort. A video, audio, and stills mashup from a music gig. This was all done by a single individual (me) -- from capture, to edit, to distribution -- using a single backpack full of gear (plus a monopod). It was double system sound (audio was captured as 2xAKG481+SBD > R44). This is the kind of thing that gives you a feel for the one-man multimedia potential of the 5D2. Amazing camera despite its shortcomings.

March 27th, 2009, 07:44 PM	#121
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It is limitation of the API Vegas uses to read third party AVI files. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 28th, 2009, 09:04 AM	#123
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes. Vegas users have had no issues with this in the past. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 4th, 2009, 08:37 AM	#124
Alvise Tedesco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Milan/Italy Posts: 63	Hi David. I'm looking for a viable workflow for the 5D. I'm on a Mac and I need 25p output. My actual workflow gives good quality but it is really time consuming (7h for 4min.): Duplicate a clip (keep original for audio). Conform duplicated clip to 25p via cinema tools (overcrank by 5 frames). Convert in Compressor to prores 25p retiming at 83,334% (Apple optical flow. Set "best" under rate conversion tab). Edit. Do Cineform gives me something better and quicker? Thanks edit: just found this, thanks "That 24p conversion is designed for HDV or 60i AVCHD sources. 30p to 24p doesn't work all the well, so I would recommend post processing for 24p conversions of 5D footage." Last edited by Alvise Tedesco; April 4th, 2009 at 01:50 PM.

April 7th, 2009, 12:54 PM	#126
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Why convert to PhotoJPG, particularly when the CineForm compresssed output looks so much better? The CineForm decoder is free any anyone who needs it (Intel Mac & PC.) Our Mac guy is out this week, so I can't address you particular questions -- like how to make QT behave. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 7th, 2009, 04:32 PM	#128
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I think the right workflow is: 1) Transcode the original MOV files to Cineform. 2) Back up either the originals, or the Cineform files. (The originals are smaller, but recovery will be simpler from the Cineform files.) 3) Edit. 4) Save your project. (Early and often - and back it up.) 5) Render to any and all delivery formats (Blu-ray, DVD, M-JPEG, whatever.) The bottom line is that your capture, intermediate and delivery formats can be completely separate. Just don't ask how... I'm a Windows/Vegas user. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 27th, 2009, 10:58 PM	#122
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Oh Ok.. so we can just disregard it and render everything as progressive.. ?

April 7th, 2009, 11:44 AM	#125
Peter Chigmaroff Tourist Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: West Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2	I've downloaded the trial version of Neo Scene. My needs are fairly simple; take a 5DII clip, edit and generate a PhotoJPG.mov file. I tried MPEG Streamclip but it seems to darken down the original clip excessively and requires too much fiddling to get it right. Neo Scene conversions look nearly perfect. However they don't play on my older PowerPC which I guess is no big deal. I import into iMovie on a Intel mac, edit and output with QT. Neo Scene conversion become jittery and darken down excessively. Tests show that it's QT that darkens the clip. I tried deinterlacing the clip in Neo Scene and that seems to clean up the jittering problem mostly. Is there a a workflow for me on my Mac that would allow me to get a proper PhotoJPG .mov file? QT seems a real wrecking crew with these converted 5DII files. Within iMovie the Neo Scene converted clips look awesome but I can't get them into the real world still looking that way. Many thanks

April 29th, 2009, 08:34 AM	#129
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Hi Folks, just tried Neoscene 1.2.1 and still find the avi washed out in Vegas Pro 8c. Does anyone have the problems?

April 29th, 2009, 07:33 PM	#131
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Now that is great news David! You will see my Neoscene order ;) For the benefit of other Vegas users, I will list the workflow in Vegas in a new thread and hopefully it will reduce your "Out of scope" calls!

April 29th, 2009, 11:24 PM	#132
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Just to clarify, there is no need to add the Computer RGB correction. The proper way to use Vegas is to calibrate your monitor for Studio (16-235) levels. If you add the Computer RGB filter, Vegas will render your output improperly, crushing your blacks and whites. Of course, if your monitor is calibrated for 0-255, you can temporarily add the conversion to see how the output will look. Just make sure to turn it off before you render. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

April 30th, 2009, 11:42 AM	#133
Bill Binder Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 542	Could I ask a question on this? If your intended distribution target is video for the web (specifically in my case usually Flash), should I stay within the 16-235 range or can I be in the 0-255 range?

April 30th, 2009, 03:03 PM	#135
Bill Binder Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 542	I've been experimenting a little with the intermediate vs. proxy thing (i.e., rendering final output from the intermediate or from the originals essentially). I've also toyed with using a Cineform master for final render to end formats, but I'm using the built in Cineform in Vegas, so I tend to avoid extra generations. But for flash encoding, I've had the same basic workflow for a while now, which is to frameserve directly from vegas to the Flash encoder app. Works great. BTW, here's my latest effort. A video, audio, and stills mashup from a music gig. This was all done by a single individual (me) -- from capture, to edit, to distribution -- using a single backpack full of gear (plus a monopod). It was double system sound (audio was captured as 2xAKG481+SBD > R44). This is the kind of thing that gives you a feel for the one-man multimedia potential of the 5D2. Amazing camera despite its shortcomings.