CineForm supports 5D Mk II editing

[Toenis Liivamaegi]

What is the point of the Neo Scene Cineform conversion when it still eats up the blacks and whites of the original QT file? Same as any free converter/rewrapper.
File size goes up from 150MB to 1GB and still no real time Windows playback?
Am I a coplete idiot when I say that this is the most pointless waste of money if the Neo Scene stays that way?
I really want to buy something to edit (Premiere CS4) my growing amount of 5D footage but at any price there just isn't a way to properly do it.

Please tell me I'm a fool doing something really wrong but out of the box the conversion only messes up and crushes the blacks and whites and eats up disk space.
It actually won't allow me to edit at all in Premiere as I can not play back the sequence.
Sure it crashes and everithing as it's suposed to on a Windows machine but why bother with a product that just wastes three hours of my time to make sure it is not usable.

T

[Julian Frost]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

I have observed that Neo Scene works properly on a "clean" system install. As I posted in another thread, when it's working properly, the files it generates (using the default "Medium" setting for the codec) are only very slightly larger than the source 5D file (131MB vs 127MB on one test file I encoded). It is comparable (in terms of filesize) to rewrapping the .mov files to .mp4 (due to the audio transcode in the rewrap process). But there's something on my main system configuration that is tripping it up, and some other folks seem to be having the same issue.

I was going to post those same results... I installed it on my Clean system when I got home last night and it briskly zipped through the same MOVs I'd used earlier in greater than real time. The original conversion of a 60MB file on the messy system was just under 500MB. On the clean system, 130MB!

Neo Scene stopped in the middle of processing the 16th file in the batch (I used the "Select Folder" option), creating a zero-byte file. I used the "Select Files" option and selected the remaining 20 or so files, including the one it had trouble with, and it successfully converted all of them.

I replaced all of the old, bloated AVIs in my project with the new skinny AVIs and Premier didn't crash once. In fact, whereas before, I could only import 3 minutes of video before Premier would crash. Now I had well over 6 minutes of video on the timeline and Premier was fine. During conversion, on the clean system, my Windows Page File never went above 750MB. On the messy system, it grew to well over 3GB.

As Toenus points out though, the blacks are still crushed, but if you use the Fast Color Corrector, you can adjust the Black Output and White Output levels and the shadow detail comes back. I'm not sure if this is the preferred, or even correct method, but it works. I have full speed play back using the Cineform intermediate CODEC, but as soon as I add the Fast Color Correction effect, playback begins to stutter and slow down again.

Julian

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Toenis Liivamaegi

What is the point of the Neo Scene Cineform conversion when it still eats up the blacks and whites of the original QT file? Same as any free converter/rewrapper.
File size goes up from 150MB to 1GB and still no real time Windows playback?
Am I a coplete idiot when I say that this is the most pointless waste of money if the Neo Scene stays that way?
I really want to buy something to edit (Premiere CS4) my growing amount of 5D footage but at any price there just isn't a way to properly do it.

Please tell me I'm a fool doing something really wrong but out of the box the conversion only messes up and crushes the blacks and whites and eats up disk space.
It actually won't allow me to edit at all in Premiere as I can not play back the sequence.
Sure it crashes and everithing as it's suposed to on a Windows machine but why bother with a product that just wastes three hours of my time to make sure it is not usable.

T

It is not designed to do that. As far as I know, it is designed to enable us to bypass the stupidity of Quicktime and their screwed up handling of YUV-RGB colorspace conversion (though I would like to see a bit more about how Neo Scene is really handling that - some configuration options would be nice just in case there are future unforeseen issues). It is also designed to generate files of manageable size which are easier to edit with than the raw footage that is spit out of current HD cameras. When it is working correctly, as far as I can tell, it does these things. It's just that some of us have encountered some snags and Cineform are working through these snags.

This is just my perception, but at its core Cineform is a very specialized technology company that was initially focused on a very specialized market. But with the advent of more affordable gear that can shoot great hi-def footage, a new market has emerged that consists of video enthusiasts, prosumers, and pros. The size of this audience is potentially orders of magnitude larger than Cineform's original market which consisted almost strictly of pros. In other words, as they tap this new market, there will likely be some growing pains as they find their way through supporting the demands of the new market and balancing it with their original core market.

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Julian Frost

I was going to post those same results... I installed it on my Clean system when I got home last night and it briskly zipped through the same MOVs I'd used earlier in greater than real time. The original conversion of a 60MB file on the messy system was just under 500MB. On the clean system, 130MB!

Neo Scene stopped in the middle of processing the 16th file in the batch (I used the "Select Folder" option), creating a zero-byte file. I used the "Select Files" option and selected the remaining 20 or so files, including the one it had trouble with, and it successfully converted all of them.

I replaced all of the old, bloated AVIs in my project with the new skinny AVIs and Premier didn't crash once. In fact, whereas before, I could only import 3 minutes of video before Premier would crash. Now I had well over 6 minutes of video on the timeline and Premier was fine. During conversion, on the clean system, my Windows Page File never went above 750MB. On the messy system, it grew to well over 3GB.

As Toenus points out though, the blacks are still crushed, but if you use the Fast Color Corrector, you can adjust the Black Output and White Output levels and the shadow detail comes back. I'm not sure if this is the preferred, or even correct method, but it works. I have full speed play back using the Cineform intermediate CODEC, but as soon as I add the Fast Color Correction effect, playback begins to stutter and slow down again.

Julian

This would be different than the dreaded "black crush" issue. The original issue was that there was clipping and no way to get it back unless the file was processed through Color or by bypassing Quicktime. So far, on the test files I was able to successfully convert with Neo Scene (on the "clean" system), it appears that I am getting the full range (at least on my Vegas 8.0c timeline). It does have a considerably different gamma than what you see from the Quicktime 7.6 player (I would hazard a guess and say that the Quicktime player is obeying the 2.199997 gamma tag in the 5d Mk II file's header). The cineform file's gamma is also slightly darker than what the QT plugin generates on the Vegas timeline with "raw" .mov files straight out of the 5d Mk II, but you can get the same look with if you apply a gamma of about 1.14 to the Cineform clip (I believe I have seen this gamma number referenced in another thread).

[Jon Fairhurst]

Keith,

In Vegas, do you get a 100% smooth histogram when using Cineform? Note that you need to set your preview to "Best" and 1920x1080 in order for the histogram scope to show the video accurately.

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Keith,

In Vegas, do you get a 100% smooth histogram when using Cineform? Note that you need to set your preview to "Best" and 1920x1080 in order for the histogram scope to show the video accurately.

yes, I can confirm that it is perfectly smooth in a 1920x1080 Best/Full preview.

[Chris Barcellos]

Just to let others know, I have downloaded latest version that was posted for Premiere users who were having problems, and I actually use Vegas. I was having problems getting the earlier version of Scene to work. It would not convert my first test 5dii files. I actually had it loaded side by side with my Neo HDV, as David Newman had suggested in another thread.

After loading this version, and uninstalling NeoHDV, conversions are fine, and even show the wider range we have been looking for to show up, at least on the highlight side. I demonstrated this to myself by loading a converted file on one line of Vegas, and the .mov file right off the camera on another, and in toggling back and forth, the converted file highlights had detail where things were blown out on the camera raw files.

I had hoped I would be able to keep NeoHDV running on the system at the same time, as I do like the conversion capabilities it gives, and I will keep trying to get it to run beside NeoScene.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

yes, I can confirm that it is perfectly smooth in a 1920x1080 Best/Full preview.

Excellent. I'll be getting NeoScene before our next project goes to post...

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Excellent. I'll be getting NeoScene before our next project goes to post...

Make sure you try the trial before buying to be sure it does what you want. Also, if you decide to buy it, don't miss the special at videoguys.

[Yang Wen]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

I have observed that Neo Scene works properly on a "clean" system install. As I posted in another thread, when it's working properly, the files it generates (using the default "Medium" setting for the codec) are only very slightly larger than the source 5D file (131MB vs 127MB on one test file I encoded). It is comparable (in terms of filesize) to rewrapping the .mov files to .mp4 (due to the audio transcode in the rewrap process). But there's something on my main system configuration that is tripping it up, and some other folks seem to be having the same issue.

Thank for the info Keith.. I'll make sure to try it out on my system... I think this issue is serious enough that it's worth a format / reinstall of OS if indeed it is software conflicting with NeoScene..

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Thank for the info Keith.. I'll make sure to try it out on my system... I think this issue is serious enough that it's worth a format / reinstall of OS if indeed it is software conflicting with NeoScene..

yeah, I'm feeling the same way but I'm trying to avoid actually doing it so I don't have to go through all the stupid software activation hassles.

[Thane Brooker]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

This may answer your question (or maybe not) but this is what I found a few months ago when looking at the Quicktime atoms in the header of a 5d Mk II file. I think it's a little strange that the "matrix" is listed as being 601 while the primaries and transferfunction are 709, but then again, I'm not real clear on what they all mean so it could be inconsequential.

I've created a new thread here because I think it is quite important, and I don't want it to get buried... this thread is quite busy! Also, it isn't directly related to Cineform, although I'm hoping someone from Cineform will know the answer for certain.

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

Also, if you decide to buy it, don't miss the special at videoguys.

Edit: this would have been an easy sale except they want to charge me $50 for shipping... yeah, no thanks, I'll download it right from cineform.

[Jack Davis]

On the various postings on other threads for cineform and neo scene, everything is about vegas, premier, windows and the all the problems. How is neo scene working with fcp. Highlights and shadows, making files easier to work with, 4:2:2 for green screening. In other words, should this be an instant download??

[Jay Bloomfield]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

The differences between 601 and 709 are easy to spot with the eye. I pasted a screen capture of each video image into Photoshop to make it easier to compare.

I couldn't find anywhere that said what CoreAVC does or doesn't do, which is partly why I posted here to see if anybody could confirm or find error in my findings.

Thane, I checked with the authors of CoreAVC and they said that you are indeed correct. They are working on adding an option, which will allow you to specify either 601 or 709. This may all be moot for me at least, since it looks like Cineform has licensed the most recent MainConcept h.264 decoder for all their products. NEO Scene already has it. I'm guessing that the upcoming new versions of Prospect HD and NEO HD will also have it.