CineForm supports 5D Mk II editing

Mark Hahn · February 25th, 2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

I wish I knew :D
In a nutshell, there are 3 issues i've identified. 1) on large file transcodes, hdlink is crashing (seems to be a memory leak) 2) on smaller clips, it creates a file, but they are significantly oversized (possibly related to #1), 3) on some clips, the video clip is being truncated at some point prior to the end of the clip - the full audio is transcoded but in one particularl clip only about half of the video is transcoded, and this is on a file that ends up being about 5.5 times larger than it should. On the same machine that I've observed these issues, I have a Windows 7 Beta virtual machine installed and I tried installing the neoscene trial on this virtual machine and #1 and #2 are not a problem at all, but #3 is still a problem. So that tells me there is likely something on my primary machine that is creating a conflict with NeoScene and not a universal bug (but others may encounter the same problem). #3 is possibly related to issues with specific source clips, but I wasn't able to try any more out before my 7-day trial expired.

Hopefully Cineform support will figure it out soon.

In order to get rid of problems such as you mention, Cineform sent me a long list of things to do to remove remnants of old stuff from my system. That plus removing anything having the slightest thing to do with codecs or players (except WMP) cleared me out. Then I installed Neo Scene and it worked fine (knock on wood).

Codec handling in windows is one of the worst things in there, and that is saying a lot.

Keith Paisley · February 25th, 2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

In order to get rid of problems such as you mention, Cineform sent me a long list of things to do to remove remnants of old stuff from my system. That plus removing anything having the slightest thing to do with codecs or players (except WMP) cleared me out. Then I installed Neo Scene and it worked fine (knock on wood).

Codec handling in windows is one of the worst things in there, and that is saying a lot.

Is that the same list that was posted here earlier (involving removing Cineform related folders and keys from the registry)? If so, I've been through all of those steps a couple of times and I still have the problems.

Mark Hahn · February 25th, 2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

Is that the same list that was posted here earlier (involving removing Cineform related folders and keys from the registry)? If so, I've been through all of those steps a couple of times and I still have the problems.

His instructions are enclosed. It had no copyright claims.

Keith Paisley · February 25th, 2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

His instructions are enclosed. It had no copyright claims.

thanks, that's pretty much what was posted in another thread. I tried that with no luck. The one peculiarity was that when I tried the step that says: Remove 'CineForm HD VFW Codec' from Add/Remove Programs (if it is listed there)., I just got an error that said it couldn't be removed, with no reason given or fix suggested. Maybe that's my problem.

Mark Hahn · February 25th, 2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

thanks, that's pretty much what was posted in another thread. I tried that with no luck. The one peculiarity was that when I tried the step that says: Remove 'CineForm HD VFW Codec' from Add/Remove Programs (if it is listed there)., I just got an error that said it couldn't be removed, with no reason given or fix suggested. Maybe that's my problem.

I think there are utilities that will let you find the actual files for the add/remove program so you can delete them (and confuse the heck out of the add/remove program). It would obviously have something to do with the registry.

Charles W. Hull · February 25th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

thanks, that's pretty much what was posted in another thread. I tried that with no luck. The one peculiarity was that when I tried the step that says: Remove 'CineForm HD VFW Codec' from Add/Remove Programs (if it is listed there)., I just got an error that said it couldn't be removed, with no reason given or fix suggested. Maybe that's my problem.

Keith, there is hope. Some time ago I had installed a trial version of Aspect HD and when I uninstalled it I went to lengths to get everything out, including editing the registry. Then when I installed the first beta version of Neo Scene that had the problem of crashing explorer I uninstalled and installed Neo Scene several times, a couple of times with registry editing. FYI I use CCleaner quite a bit, to root out bad registry data as well as to save the registry before any edits (where I use regedit); CCleaner might also work to remove the VFW codec. After all this the current Neo Scene version runs very well for me, actually on two different computers. Of course I still can't edit smoothly and am axiously awaiting the CS4 importer.

Julian Frost · February 25th, 2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

I wish I knew :D
In a nutshell, there are 3 issues i've identified.
1) on large file transcodes, hdlink is crashing (seems to be a memory leak)
[...snip...]
2) on smaller clips, it creates a file, but they are significantly oversized (possibly related to #1)

Reference #1: When using Neo HD and HD Link, I had the same problem. HD Link would use more of Windows Page File each time a MOV file was converted, and never release it. After a few files, it would gobble up the entire Page File and HD Link would crash. I've not experienced the same problem with Neo Scene.

Reference #2: When I used the Trial version of Neo *HD* and HD Link, I was noticing that the converted files were anywhere from 20-50% larger than the native MOV files from the 5D mmk II. With Neo *Scene*, the files are AT LEAST 5-8 times larger than the native MOV fles straight from the camera. A 60MB clip in MOV format will be nearly 500MB after conversion. This causes problems for Premier Pro, as you can't put many 500MB clips on the time line before it runs out of memory and crashes.

Since purchasing Neo Scene, I've been able to create a nearly 4-minute long video, but Premier Pro CS3 crashed at least 30 times during the edit (simple cut transitions), most likely due to memory problems. My work flow ended up being: Drag a file to the timeline, make an edit, save the project, make another edit, save the project, crash, restart Premier and load the project and continue the process.

Julian

Yang Wen · February 25th, 2009, 09:13 PM

You guys who are having issues with NLE crashing while working with NeoScene files, have you tried transcoding other files to Cineform codec? If NLE continues to crash with media transcoded from another source such as HDV, then NeoScene is the problem...

Julian Frost · February 25th, 2009, 10:52 PM

That's a good thing to try... but to answer your question, no, I haven't tried it yet. I'm sure it's a memory problem, for example, loading 3+ GB of video files into Premier with only 3GB RAM on the motherboard. The problem is that there souldn't be 3+ GB of video files in the first place!

I think Neo Scene is creating files which are just way too big (as I said, 5-8 times as large as the original MOVs). Neo HD's HDLink created files which were much smaller, only about 20% larger than the originals. When a single short clip (60mB MOV) becomes a 500MB monster AVI after conversion, you won't be able to fit many of these short clips on the timeline before you run into problems.

Julian

Mark Hahn · February 25th, 2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

You guys who are having issues with NLE crashing while working with NeoScene files, have you tried transcoding other files to Cineform codec? If NLE continues to crash with media transcoded from another source such as HDV, then NeoScene is the problem...

First of all, right now to get Neo Scene to work, you have your totally clean your machine of every codec and player and then reinstall it.

Also, The only premiere CS3 crash I've ever seen was when I was trying to show a clip for which the codec was missing and even then it would first show the clip all screwed up.

Keith Paisley · February 26th, 2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

First of all, right now to get Neo Scene to work, you have your totally clean your machine of every codec and player and then reinstall it.

Also, The only premiere CS3 crash I've ever seen was when I was trying to show a clip for which the codec was missing and even then it would first show the clip all screwed up.

I have been informed that there is a build that fixes the hdlink crashing issue, but it's not going to be released until next week. Hopefully this (memory leak?) is related to the filesize bloating issue as well, and will fix the PP crashes.

Yang Wen · February 26th, 2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Frost

That's a good thing to try... but to answer your question, no, I haven't tried it yet. I'm sure it's a memory problem, for example, loading 3+ GB of video files into Premier with only 3GB RAM on the motherboard. The problem is that there souldn't be 3+ GB of video files in the first place!

I think Neo Scene is creating files which are just way too big (as I said, 5-8 times as large as the original MOVs). Neo HD's HDLink created files which were much smaller, only about 20% larger than the originals. When a single short clip (60mB MOV) becomes a 500MB monster AVI after conversion, you won't be able to fit many of these short clips on the timeline before you run into problems.

Julian

Interesting.. so there discussion of whether this is as designed? Why do the files from NeoHD come out so relatively small? Are the NeoScene files big only for 5D2 input files? or other sources as well? If it's also other sources, then I can not use NeoScene in my workflow as I anticipate of having large hour long files from my wedding business...

Keith Paisley · February 26th, 2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Interesting.. so there discussion of whether this is as designed? Why do the files from NeoHD come out so relatively small? Are the NeoScene files big only for 5D2 input files? or other sources as well? If it's also other sources, then I can not use NeoScene in my workflow as I anticipate of having large hour long files from my wedding business...

I have observed that Neo Scene works properly on a "clean" system install. As I posted in another thread, when it's working properly, the files it generates (using the default "Medium" setting for the codec) are only very slightly larger than the source 5D file (131MB vs 127MB on one test file I encoded). It is comparable (in terms of filesize) to rewrapping the .mov files to .mp4 (due to the audio transcode in the rewrap process). But there's something on my main system configuration that is tripping it up, and some other folks seem to be having the same issue.

Charles W. Hull · February 26th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

But there's something on my main system configuration that is tripping it up, and some other folks seem to be having the same issue.

Keith, have you tried the new version 1.1.1 fix?
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-...4-windows.html

Keith Paisley · February 26th, 2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles W. Hull

Keith, have you tried the new version 1.1.1 fix?
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-...4-windows.html

It wasn't really intended to fix the issues I reported, but I tried it anyhow, with no success.

February 25th, 2009, 09:13 PM	#68
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	You guys who are having issues with NLE crashing while working with NeoScene files, have you tried transcoding other files to Cineform codec? If NLE continues to crash with media transcoded from another source such as HDV, then NeoScene is the problem...

February 25th, 2009, 10:52 PM	#69
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	That's a good thing to try... but to answer your question, no, I haven't tried it yet. I'm sure it's a memory problem, for example, loading 3+ GB of video files into Premier with only 3GB RAM on the motherboard. The problem is that there souldn't be 3+ GB of video files in the first place! I think Neo Scene is creating files which are just way too big (as I said, 5-8 times as large as the original MOVs). Neo HD's HDLink created files which were much smaller, only about 20% larger than the originals. When a single short clip (60mB MOV) becomes a 500MB monster AVI after conversion, you won't be able to fit many of these short clips on the timeline before you run into problems. Julian