CineForm supports 5D Mk II editing

[Chris Barcellos]

In Vista, I have been advised by David Newman to use Media Player Classic to play the Cineform files. Something screwy with current WMP

[Thane Brooker]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

Once you are certain that CoreAVC is really being used, go back into the CoreAVC Decoder Properties and ensure Input Levels are set to PC: 0-255, and Output Levels are set to TV: 16-235 if using with Windows Media Player (Windows Media Player 11, like Premiere Pro CS4, expects any input to be 16-235 and will clip anything outside this range).

Sorry, the above was incorrect. I was leaving all outputs ticked (RGB, YUY2, YV12, etc) and assuming RGB format was always being used, which isn't the case on my system. Corrected paragraph follows:

Once you are certain that CoreAVC is really being used, for using it to preview native 5D .mov files in Windows Media Player go back into the CoreAVC Decoder Properties and untick all Output Formats except YUY2. Ensure Input levels are set to PC: 0-255 and Output levels are set to TV: 16-235. This will show using BT.709 in Vista/Windows Media Player 11. You can untick all Output Formats except RGB32, this will show using BT.601 format.

Note the above is based on a visual comparison in photoshop, and not based on any documentation. So it could be wrong, or specific only in certain configuration. Hoping others can confirm/deny the above.

And David, sorry to hijack your thread with so many seemingly unrelated Cineform issues, but this all came about from my question regarding using external decoders rather than the new 5D Decoder built into Neo Scene in order to end up with a Cineform file 16-235, BT.709.

[Thane Brooker]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

If so, are you saying that if I repackage a native .mov file in Quicktime Pro and import that, CS4 will NOT compress it into 16-235 (0-100 on the scope) and will clip it like a 0-255 cineform/lagarith file (lots of pixels at 0 and 100), BUT the clipped areas can be brought into range using ProcAmp/Fast Color Corrector like a hdv m2t file? So when I increase brightness, for example, the data from RGB0-15 magically appears on the bottom of the scope?

To answer my own question, I bought a copy of Quicktime Pro and tried it. Yes, as you raise brightness using Procamp and the 32-bit mode, the sub-blacks do come into range. BUT... in rewrapping .mov to .mp4, Premiere Pro now incorrectly interprets the pixel aspect ratio as 0.7555 so I get a squashed horizontal picture with black bars either side.

Also, using Quicktime Pro to change the wrapper isn't a suitable solution for processing multiple files because there is no batch option.

I seem to recall the fuller versions of Cineform (Neo HD and Prospect) had a rewrap AVI<>MOV option in HDLink. Does re-wrapping a native 5D MOV to AVI, and importing that into Premiere Pro CS4, allow use of Procamp to access the supers, without messing up the pixel aspect ratio? Also, can HDLink batch process MOV to AVI rewraps? My trial(s) of Neo HD and Prospect have run out so I can't test.

[Charles W. Hull]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

Just to clarify, this is what I am seeing when I drag each file type onto the timeline and look at the RGB parade:

Native .mov: Squished into 16-235 (0-100 on the scope), gamma brightened, various lines of missing color.

0-255 file (cineform, lagarith): 0-15 and 236-255 clipped. So I have a lot of pixels at 0 and 100 on the scope due to the clipping. Cannot adjust brightness or contrast using ProcAmp/Fast Color Corrector to bring the clipped areas into range, it is as if they aren't there.

Thane, if you have CoreAVC installed then Neo Scene gets its starting video from Haali/CoreAVC and you get the squished 16-235 range. If you uninstall Haali/CoreAVC then the video goes to Neo Scene through the Canon decode filter. In this case when you run Neo Scene you get the 0-255 range in Premiere. However the Cineform file can still go outside the 0-255 range and have clipping, but you can recover this with ProcAmp. I'd be interested if you could give this a try.

[Thane Brooker]

Originally Posted by Charles W. Hull

Thane, if you have CoreAVC installed then Neo Scene gets its starting video from Haali/CoreAVC and you get the squished 16-235 range. If you uninstall Haali/CoreAVC then the video goes to Neo Scene through the Canon decode filter. In this case when you run Neo Scene you get the 0-255 range in Premiere. However the Cineform file can still go outside the 0-255 range and have clipping, but you can recover this with ProcAmp. I'd be interested if you could give this a try.

Hi Charles,

When I tried Prospect and Neo HD a few weeks back (prior to the native 5D support in the latest Neo Scene release), HDLink called a Directshow filter for the decode just as you describe. I'm not sure if substituting Canon's decoder for CoreAVC will make a difference to the way CS4 handles the -15 and 236+ range; I can't test as my trials of the the full HDLink supplied with Neo HD and Prospect have expired.

However, I have the latest Neo Scene on trial (2 days until expiry) and I can confirm this latest release doesn't call an external decoder and it does the conversion internally. Either that, or it is hard-coded to use a directshow filter that isn't CoreAVC or FFDShow.

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

Hi Charles,

When I tried Prospect and Neo HD a few weeks back (prior to the native 5D support in the latest Neo Scene release), HDLink called a Directshow filter for the decode just as you describe. I'm not sure if substituting Canon's decoder for CoreAVC will make a difference to the way CS4 handles the -15 and 236+ range; I can't test as my trials of the the full HDLink supplied with Neo HD and Prospect have expired.

However, I have the latest Neo Scene on trial (2 days until expiry) and I can confirm this latest release doesn't call an external decoder and it does the conversion internally. Either that, or it is hard-coded to use a directshow filter that isn't CoreAVC or FFDShow.

I'm sure you can get your trial periods extended. I've done it with other products often, when there is a valid reason. Just send them a link to this thread.

[Thane Brooker]

I've been doing some experimenting to find a workable Premiere Pro CS4 workflow. I've posted a solution here.

I'm looking forward to full Cineform CS4 compatibility now and especially the CS4 Prospect trial!

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Thane Brooker

I've been doing some experimenting to find a workable Premiere Pro CS4 workflow. I've posted a solution here.

I'm looking forward to full Cineform CS4 compatibility now and especially the CS4 Prospect trial!

Any reason this couldn't be used with CS3?

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Neal Wagner

This thread is great news, NeoScene looks to be the missing link for the 5d2. A tactical question, after installing NeoScene and QT and the a3 filter I can convert 5d2 mov's into beautiful avi's as played on QT. But Sony Vegas 8.1 only shows the audio from the new avi, what am I missing?
Thank you.

Showing my stupidity: What is A3 and why is it needed with QT and Neo Scene?

[Yang Wen]

So just to recap all the discussion up to this point, and let me know if I'm correct in my assessment:

- NeoScene can now transcode 5D2 mov files. However, files transcoded in Scene will have the famous Crushed Black issue, whereas if the native mov files are imported into Vegas, they do not have the Crushed Black issue.

- Cineform has not addressed why NeoScene exhibits the crushed black issue especially when the issue was suppose to have been fixed with the 7.6 QT update.

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

So just to recap all the discussion up to this point, and let me know if I'm correct in my assessment:

- NeoScene can now transcode 5D2 mov files. However, files transcoded in Scene will have the famous Crushed Black issue, whereas if the native mov files are imported into Vegas, they do not have the Crushed Black issue.

- Cineform has not addressed why NeoScene exhibits the crushed black issue especially when the issue was suppose to have been fixed with the 7.6 QT update.

This is damn confusing. I wish someone with a talent for technical writing could summarize this for us.

1) 5D2 clips converted with Neo Scene have nothing crushed. The data goes naturally and correctly from 0 to 255. However much software expects the the traditional narrower range, ignores the metadata, and causes problems when the neo scene clips are converted with that software.

2) There is no problem for Cineform to address.

3) I have no idea if QT 7.6 has fixed everything. When I import a QT 7.6 scene from 5D2 into Premiere CS3, and look at an RGB parade, I see band banding that clearly shows it is screwing up something in the color values during the 5D2 conversion or somehow when importing into Premiere.

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

This is damn confusing. I wish someone with a talent for technical writing could summarize this for us.

1) 5D2 clips converted with Neo Scene have nothing crushed. The data goes naturally and correctly from 0 to 255. However much software expects the the traditional narrower range, ignores the metadata, and causes problems when the neo scene clips are converted with that software.

2) There is no problem for Cineform to address.

3) I have no idea if QT 7.6 has fixed everything. When I import a QT 7.6 scene from 5D2 into Premiere CS3, and look at an RGB parade, I see band banding that clearly shows it is screwing up something in the color values during the 5D2 conversion or somehow when importing into Premiere.

3) As I mentioned a month ago, I don't think the QT 7.6 update has corrected the issue 100% yet. If you are using raw 5d mk II files on the timeline (at least on Vegas Pro), you are losing some levels. See what I posted here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...ml#post1000320. This is another reason why I have chosen to purchase Neo Scene and use that workflow. Now if only I could get it to work on my system I'd be in business.

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

3) As I mentioned a month ago, I don't think the QT 7.6 update has corrected the issue 100% yet. If you are using raw 5d mk II files on the timeline (at least on Vegas Pro), you are losing some levels. See what I posted here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...ml#post1000320. This is another reason why I have chosen to purchase Neo Scene and use that workflow. Now if only I could get it to work on my system I'd be in business.

Damn you (<grin>). I thought I had a working process with Neo Scene until you pointed out problems. I'm going to study them also.

[Yang Wen]

Keith: Why isn't Scene converted 5D2 files not working for you in Vegas?

[Keith Paisley]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Keith: Why isn't Scene converted 5D2 files not working for you in Vegas?

I wish I knew :D
In a nutshell, there are 3 issues i've identified. 1) on large file transcodes, hdlink is crashing (seems to be a memory leak) 2) on smaller clips, it creates a file, but they are significantly oversized (possibly related to #1), 3) on some clips, the video clip is being truncated at some point prior to the end of the clip - the full audio is transcoded but in one particularl clip only about half of the video is transcoded, and this is on a file that ends up being about 5.5 times larger than it should. On the same machine that I've observed these issues, I have a Windows 7 Beta virtual machine installed and I tried installing the neoscene trial on this virtual machine and #1 and #2 are not a problem at all, but #3 is still a problem. So that tells me there is likely something on my primary machine that is creating a conflict with NeoScene and not a universal bug (but others may encounter the same problem). #3 is possibly related to issues with specific source clips, but I wasn't able to try any more out before my 7-day trial expired.

Hopefully Cineform support will figure it out soon.