A Good Conversation With Canon

Jim Giberti · February 3rd, 2009, 03:07 PM

Nothing to elaborate Jay, you just explained it as I've been doing. I mentioned the idea of using other than a 180 angle as something you might use and only if you could control it , bviously. The extreme example being a very slow shutter speed.

Again, as I've said, all of our 24p cameras are locked at 1/48. When we shot with earlier Canons that shot at 30f they were defaulted to 1/60.

There is no practical reason for the 5DII to be set anywhere other than 1/60 and stay there forever. Canon could and should do that immediately. It would remove one of biggest drawbacks to the creative use of the camera - the arbitrarily varying shutter speed does nothing but cause problems when shooting in Movie Mode.
We certainly don't need that as a third unknowable auto function.

It seems to be a classic case of Still photography design getting confused with the necessities of filmmaking/videography.

You may have missed my initial post that started this thread, but my call to Canon regarded a two day, two 5DII shoot for a major client that was ruined because of the varying shutter.

I'm going to post a short piece this week - not the footage in question that was for national TV - but with the same issue. It's a really pretty promotional piece shot in similarly perfect falling snow...very cinematic - until the beautiful falling snow turns into frenetic random bits of white because the camera decided it had to be shooting at a ridiculously high shutter speed.

The piece is still nice, but I couldn't present it to a client or air it on TV.

Canon really needs to start by simply leaving the shutter alone. using the shutter as some form of exposure control is simply absurd when shooting film or video and Canon should know that.

They certainly were appreciative of learning of it in my conversation, and Tech literally wasn't aware of the negative impact it had.

Jim Giberti · February 3rd, 2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Jim, absolutely great thread. You more or less nail exactly why many people who haven't bought the camera - although very interested - are still on the fence (I'm one of them).

You also nail why people who have bought the cam are frustrated. Your point that even if everything was fully adjustable, it still wouldn't be a video camera is spot on.

john

Thanks John. My reason for it and my fairly lengthy responses is to keep it out there for Canon and to get as many people to communicate it to them directly. My personal experience with them was great as it has been for a long time.

Quick aside but very relevant from a long time customer relationship standpoint.

My very first quality SLR was a Canon film camera. Our first video cameras once we moved from Sony Beta stuff were Canon Xl1s, Xl1Ss, XL2s. The first break from Canon for me was the first JVC HD and to Nikon.

I went Nikon because I'd built a huge top end Nikon lens collection shooting with the Mini35 and Letus.

When this camera arrived I was so psyched and ready to reinvest in all Canon cameras and glass and stay with this new approach to acquisition going forward. I still love the camera's quality and promise, but they're requiring me to use my Nikons instead of investing in all the "L: glass I planned on and they're making it much more difficult than quality film making has ever been for me in the past 10 years.

This camera should make beautiful filmmaking easy and fast for people experienced in both media - and it would if they just made a couple of simple modifications to the firmware.

From a customer/corporate standpoint it makes a lot more sense for them to reconsider their decision regarding their paradoxical design of a professional point and shoot camera, than for me and my company to reconsider my decision to reinvest in their technology for years to come.

Jay Bloomfield · February 3rd, 2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

The Normandy scenes in Saving Private Ryan and the action scenes in the Bourne movies are great examples of how fast shutter speeds can be put to use. We want that look where it makes sense, and we absolutely need to avoid it where it doesn't.

I think I pointed that out the "Saving Private Ryan" effect in a previous thread (as have many others). That (strobing) qualifies as a special effect. In photography, using a fast shutter speed stops action, period.

Quote:

Regarding the 5D Mark II shutter speeds, 1/60 is not achievable. I can shoot at virtually any ISO at ~1/45 (actual, not reported), and I can shoot at 1/45, 1/80 and a number of faster speeds to at least 1/500 at 100 ISO.

Well, I'll take your word for it, but we are all relying on what the camera is displaying. Unfortunately, none of us have any idea as to whether that shutter speed value is completely accurate or not, since the frame by frame metadata that exists on the MOV file is not readable by any software that's commercially available. I asked David Newman of Cineform if they could add that "debugging" option to HDLink & their encoder. He was interested in the idea, but it obviously isn't their top priority. Further, whether one could translate the metadata (frame not file header, which is already available) from the MOV file correctly or not is questionable. For HDV camcorders, there is a wonderful piece of freeware called HDV Data Monitor that displays shutter, gain and aperture, frame by frame, both in RT and for m2t files. Maybe someone who is presently fooling around trying to hack the 5D2, would be better off spending their time on a MOV file frame metadata displayer.

Also, even if that shutter speed display is accurate, it may be due to the "tinkering" that everyone is doing to achieve some semblance of manual control. This tinkering could disrupt the algorithm altogether. My point is that it would be illogical for Canon not to target 1/60 in their algorithm. But then again, Mr. Spock didn't design the 5D2.

Quote:

1/30 is the slowest possible frame rate that a 30 fps camera. You can't hold the shutter open for 1/10 sec within the limits of a 1/30 second frame.

Actually, a lot of camcorders have slower than 1/30 shutter speeds at 30 fps. What you're saying is that there is no benefit derived and that's my original point.

Jon Fairhurst · February 3rd, 2009, 05:49 PM

It really is a paradox.

"It's for amateurs, therefore it's difficult to use properly." Huh?

"And by the way, please buy Nikon manual lenses." Double huh?

At a minimum, they should release firmware that holds the AE Lock until you deactivate it or exit Live View. AE Lock should not deactivate when you stop recording.

We'd still have to use a flashlight once per use, but we could set a long timeout, lock the settings (at 1/45) and fine tune (the ISO) as needed for each shot with Exposure Compensation. That would help reduce the constant irritation of tricking the camera on every dang take. Doing it once during prep isn't nearly as unreasonable.

It still wouldn't fix the lens problem. In other words, it would reduce the problem for owners, but still wouldn't fix Canon's business problem of selling the other guy's lenses - and possibly motivating us to buy the other guy's body next time around.

Still, if AE Lock didn't deactivate each time we stop recording, it would make the camera MUCH more efficient in real-world use.

Lars T. Therkildsen · February 4th, 2009, 11:08 AM

I recently wrote to Canon with the same requests as you guys have been doing. My first reply was a standard one about DoF, which had nothing to do with what I asked for (24/25p and manual controls). As I wrote, fiddling with the camera makes you look unprofessional, but also gives them a bad name (customers will notice that it's a Canon you are shooting on) and that we are looking at Nikon lenses now.

Aaaanyway I got a second reply, which didn't confirm anything about a firmware update. What it did say was among other things:

"...
We are well aware of the interest that some photographers and
videographers have in gaining more control over the footage they shoot.
I'm not sure what we may or may not do to address the points you
mentioned, but we are always looking to improve the functionality of our
cameras.

In addition to what ******* mentioned, you can also use the AE Lock
button and the Exposure Compensation controls to tweak what settings the
camera uses.

If you have not done so already, you might also find some interesting
ideas about controlling the camera at sites like dvinfo.net. We don't
endorse everything found on those forum-based sites, but they tend to
have a wide range of knowledgeable professionals who are ready to share
their own thoughts and experiences. Perhaps some of their techniques
will be helpful to you."

At least they are looking at this site. Don't know what to think from the reply.

Michael Murie · February 4th, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

No offense guys but these are non-issues in this discussion. I don't know of a single professional who makes a living or a penny via youtube. That is by definition the home of amateur video.

Maybe, but people are making money on YouTube, and do you really want to argue that the internet isn't where everything is going to end up?

There was a report recently that The Wall Street Journal is giving reporters Sony HDR-HC9's to capture video to put on their website. The Wall Street Journal Standardizes on the Sony HDR-HC9 - Other

Check out a bunch of clips on YouTube like this one from Davos (Jet Li joins the Davos Debates): YouTube - Jet Li joins the Davos Debates

When Canon talks about professional photographers having the ability to capture video, I think it's primarily this kind of use that they had in mind.

Even when they talk about wedding photographers using it to capture video, I don't think they meant wedding videographers.

Don't get me wrong, this is one bozo that would also like more manual controls. I just don't get the indignation and the implied "Canon is trying to screw us." If you don't understand where Canon is coming from, how are you going to communicate with them?

Jim Giberti · February 4th, 2009, 02:06 PM

You certainly didn't read that here. From the title of the thread to specific comments about Canon not doing this to be punitive and the need to convey information they may not have considered congenially, has been the tone of this discussion. I think you're hyping this a bit or misreading it, but I think we're pretty comfortable with the balanced tone and message here.

At the same time, if you've lost valuable time and resources because as you work with something more of the flaws are revealed, then of course you're going to convey that - and early in the products history is the time to do it.

But as a professional consultant in just these things, to answer your last rhetorical question - I would never say "Canon is trying to screw us" - I've said just the opposite. And I make a living communicating with top CEOs and teaching companies how too communicate everyday so I'm good there too.

Jay Bloomfield · February 4th, 2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Murie

... When Canon talks about professional photographers having the ability to capture video, I think it's primarily this kind of use that they had in mind. ...

And that's really the point here. The only real blunder that Canon made was not including 25p for our friends on the continent (and elsewhere). I would be shocked if there isn't a firmware upgrade that adds that capability. Of course, that would also get everybody a frame rate that could be reasonably converted to 24p.

But all this consumer backlash is good, in that it is most likely speeding up the process of Canon (and Sony and maybe even Nikon) to produce a full frame/large sensor camcorder that looks very much like the SONY EX-3. So, all and all, the pressure, complaints, etc. won't be wasted.

Jon Fairhurst · February 4th, 2009, 02:31 PM

I think Canon is trying to balance their still and pro video camera business models. They're not trying to harm anybody.

And I think most of their product decisions have been spot on. They didn't compromise their still camera at all to accommodate video. There are no new video knobs or appendages. The 5D MkI user can use the MkII without skipping a beat.

I can even understand not having 24p (though I would very much like it). Many video cameras didn't support 24p until recently.

The difficulty of getting our shots to match when edited back-to-back, however, is a real problem. As I wrote earlier, in the analog age, amateurs didn't edit. In the digital age, everybody does - even amateurs and young children.

I'm not feeling screwed. I'm feeling that a very minor change in the firmware would make the camera enjoyable to use, and that I would be shopping for a whole different set of lenses.

Most of all, I would be transformed from an annoyed customer to a reasonably loyal one.

Tomaso Perrone · February 4th, 2009, 03:15 PM

I'm in Canada and would love to get to a *real* person!
I have gone through the Customer Support channel - only to be bombarded by form letters
I think the only way to get a real response is to talk to a person.

Tom

Jim Giberti · February 5th, 2009, 11:03 AM

There are definitely real people to talk to and I think they're being as responsive as possible.
It's probably more of a "rock and a hard place" situation for them. Their jobs involve technical support and customer service and with the 5DII they're trying to respond to strategic issues and complaints rather than "push this and adjust this and if that doesn't work send it in fro service" stuff.
I think they're hearing us and understanding, but they don't have specific answers until they're given them from a whole different level.

Mark Poggi · February 5th, 2009, 05:10 PM

I absolutely love the footage I've seen from MK II. As others have pointed out, the full frame sensor, low light capabilities and swappable lenses are unprecedented in the video world for around $3k. I've been waiting for years for an affordable video camera with these features!

The strong reactions we've seen from some are simply expressing their disappointment that Canon has released a revolutionary product, but chosen to limit its functionality. Canon may or may not have been misleading about this, but, in the end, the disappointment remains the same. So close, yet so far.

Unfortunately, I suspect I am like many others who find the lack of manual control (even limited control) makes a purchase decision difficult. This is especially true when it is likely we are at the beginning of a wave of similar competing products. I hope that Canon listens to the feedback they've received from users in this forum and others regarding a firmware update for the MK II. If not, I will continue to make due with the cameras I currently have at my disposal until the real deal is released. Either way the next year is going to be very interesting for filmmakers....

Jon Fairhurst · February 5th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Mark,

It sounds like Canon's lack of manual controls has simply delayed your purchase, rather than keeping you in the 1/3" prosumer video fold.

I have yet to hear somebody say that they really, really wanted to buy the 5D MkII, but because of the lack of manual control alone, they chose to buy an A1.

Even with manual control, the 5D buyer is generally not interested in a 1/3" camera - or they want both, because of complimentary strengths and weaknesses.

Mike Williams · February 5th, 2009, 08:34 PM

The stills are insanely amazing! I am a run and gun event shooter. One man band. Was looking for something to give me the shallow dof of a film camera. also liked the idea of a smaller rig. bottom line......

forget shooting video on this without jumping through serious hoops.

to go from still mode with amazing dof to full auto vid mode is pure frustration. the amazing video you see posted was not achieved easily.

i am now at the crux of buying the manual glass or selling the cam. the main thing keeping me from selling right now is that I sold my d300 to buy this and I want a good still camera.

Please Canon!!!!!!! Please give us a firmware update even if it's just for video shooters... i would be willing to beta test as I'm sure many would be willing to do as well ...

perhaps an easy fix....

1) exposure lock without needing to be rolling and keep it on until we decide to deactivate it PLEASE.
2) shutter locked at 1/60.. for starters:)
3) aperture control.... maybe a stretch ...

In case you are on the fence about this cam... forget it unless they fix these things for video. You will be sorry.

I would be willing to pay for a firmware update to cover R&D expenses as well. Perhaps we can all volunteer this and make it happen... $100 ? it's worth that for full manual control with vid.

Yang Wen · February 5th, 2009, 09:33 PM

I would pay $100 for full manual control. Meaning, full control that is accessible with Live View in exposure test mode... (shutter, aperture, ISO)

I'm just hoping Nikon will quickly release a D800 (or something) with HD video and full manual control. That should convince Canon to do the same for the 5D2 owners.

February 3rd, 2009, 05:49 PM	#34
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	It really is a paradox. "It's for amateurs, therefore it's difficult to use properly." Huh? "And by the way, please buy Nikon manual lenses." Double huh? At a minimum, they should release firmware that holds the AE Lock until you deactivate it or exit Live View. AE Lock should not deactivate when you stop recording. We'd still have to use a flashlight once per use, but we could set a long timeout, lock the settings (at 1/45) and fine tune (the ISO) as needed for each shot with Exposure Compensation. That would help reduce the constant irritation of tricking the camera on every dang take. Doing it once during prep isn't nearly as unreasonable. It still wouldn't fix the lens problem. In other words, it would reduce the problem for owners, but still wouldn't fix Canon's business problem of selling the other guy's lenses - and possibly motivating us to buy the other guy's body next time around. Still, if AE Lock didn't deactivate each time we stop recording, it would make the camera MUCH more efficient in real-world use. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 4th, 2009, 02:31 PM	#39
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I think Canon is trying to balance their still and pro video camera business models. They're not trying to harm anybody. And I think most of their product decisions have been spot on. They didn't compromise their still camera at all to accommodate video. There are no new video knobs or appendages. The 5D MkI user can use the MkII without skipping a beat. I can even understand not having 24p (though I would very much like it). Many video cameras didn't support 24p until recently. The difficulty of getting our shots to match when edited back-to-back, however, is a real problem. As I wrote earlier, in the analog age, amateurs didn't edit. In the digital age, everybody does - even amateurs and young children. I'm not feeling screwed. I'm feeling that a very minor change in the firmware would make the camera enjoyable to use, and that I would be shopping for a whole different set of lenses. Most of all, I would be transformed from an annoyed customer to a reasonably loyal one. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 5th, 2009, 05:10 PM	#42
Mark Poggi Tourist Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2	I absolutely love the footage I've seen from MK II. As others have pointed out, the full frame sensor, low light capabilities and swappable lenses are unprecedented in the video world for around $3k. I've been waiting for years for an affordable video camera with these features! The strong reactions we've seen from some are simply expressing their disappointment that Canon has released a revolutionary product, but chosen to limit its functionality. Canon may or may not have been misleading about this, but, in the end, the disappointment remains the same. So close, yet so far. Unfortunately, I suspect I am like many others who find the lack of manual control (even limited control) makes a purchase decision difficult. This is especially true when it is likely we are at the beginning of a wave of similar competing products. I hope that Canon listens to the feedback they've received from users in this forum and others regarding a firmware update for the MK II. If not, I will continue to make due with the cameras I currently have at my disposal until the real deal is released. Either way the next year is going to be very interesting for filmmakers.... Last edited by Mark Poggi; February 5th, 2009 at 05:55 PM.

February 5th, 2009, 05:50 PM	#43
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Mark, It sounds like Canon's lack of manual controls has simply delayed your purchase, rather than keeping you in the 1/3" prosumer video fold. I have yet to hear somebody say that they really, really wanted to buy the 5D MkII, but because of the lack of manual control alone, they chose to buy an A1. Even with manual control, the 5D buyer is generally not interested in a 1/3" camera - or they want both, because of complimentary strengths and weaknesses. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 5th, 2009, 08:34 PM	#44
Mike Williams Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USVI Posts: 232	bought one The stills are insanely amazing! I am a run and gun event shooter. One man band. Was looking for something to give me the shallow dof of a film camera. also liked the idea of a smaller rig. bottom line...... forget shooting video on this without jumping through serious hoops. to go from still mode with amazing dof to full auto vid mode is pure frustration. the amazing video you see posted was not achieved easily. i am now at the crux of buying the manual glass or selling the cam. the main thing keeping me from selling right now is that I sold my d300 to buy this and I want a good still camera. Please Canon!!!!!!! Please give us a firmware update even if it's just for video shooters... i would be willing to beta test as I'm sure many would be willing to do as well ... perhaps an easy fix.... 1) exposure lock without needing to be rolling and keep it on until we decide to deactivate it PLEASE. 2) shutter locked at 1/60.. for starters:) 3) aperture control.... maybe a stretch ... In case you are on the fence about this cam... forget it unless they fix these things for video. You will be sorry. I would be willing to pay for a firmware update to cover R&D expenses as well. Perhaps we can all volunteer this and make it happen... $100 ? it's worth that for full manual control with vid.

February 3rd, 2009, 03:07 PM	#31
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Nothing to elaborate Jay, you just explained it as I've been doing. I mentioned the idea of using other than a 180 angle as something you might use and only if you could control it , bviously. The extreme example being a very slow shutter speed. Again, as I've said, all of our 24p cameras are locked at 1/48. When we shot with earlier Canons that shot at 30f they were defaulted to 1/60. There is no practical reason for the 5DII to be set anywhere other than 1/60 and stay there forever. Canon could and should do that immediately. It would remove one of biggest drawbacks to the creative use of the camera - the arbitrarily varying shutter speed does nothing but cause problems when shooting in Movie Mode. We certainly don't need that as a third unknowable auto function. It seems to be a classic case of Still photography design getting confused with the necessities of filmmaking/videography. You may have missed my initial post that started this thread, but my call to Canon regarded a two day, two 5DII shoot for a major client that was ruined because of the varying shutter. I'm going to post a short piece this week - not the footage in question that was for national TV - but with the same issue. It's a really pretty promotional piece shot in similarly perfect falling snow...very cinematic - until the beautiful falling snow turns into frenetic random bits of white because the camera decided it had to be shooting at a ridiculously high shutter speed. The piece is still nice, but I couldn't present it to a client or air it on TV. Canon really needs to start by simply leaving the shutter alone. using the shutter as some form of exposure control is simply absurd when shooting film or video and Canon should know that. They certainly were appreciative of learning of it in my conversation, and Tech literally wasn't aware of the negative impact it had.

February 4th, 2009, 11:08 AM	#35
Lars T. Therkildsen New Boot Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 15	I recently wrote to Canon with the same requests as you guys have been doing. My first reply was a standard one about DoF, which had nothing to do with what I asked for (24/25p and manual controls). As I wrote, fiddling with the camera makes you look unprofessional, but also gives them a bad name (customers will notice that it's a Canon you are shooting on) and that we are looking at Nikon lenses now. Aaaanyway I got a second reply, which didn't confirm anything about a firmware update. What it did say was among other things: "... We are well aware of the interest that some photographers and videographers have in gaining more control over the footage they shoot. I'm not sure what we may or may not do to address the points you mentioned, but we are always looking to improve the functionality of our cameras. In addition to what ******* mentioned, you can also use the AE Lock button and the Exposure Compensation controls to tweak what settings the camera uses. If you have not done so already, you might also find some interesting ideas about controlling the camera at sites like dvinfo.net. We don't endorse everything found on those forum-based sites, but they tend to have a wide range of knowledgeable professionals who are ready to share their own thoughts and experiences. Perhaps some of their techniques will be helpful to you." At least they are looking at this site. Don't know what to think from the reply.

February 4th, 2009, 02:06 PM	#37
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	You certainly didn't read that here. From the title of the thread to specific comments about Canon not doing this to be punitive and the need to convey information they may not have considered congenially, has been the tone of this discussion. I think you're hyping this a bit or misreading it, but I think we're pretty comfortable with the balanced tone and message here. At the same time, if you've lost valuable time and resources because as you work with something more of the flaws are revealed, then of course you're going to convey that - and early in the products history is the time to do it. But as a professional consultant in just these things, to answer your last rhetorical question - I would never say "Canon is trying to screw us" - I've said just the opposite. And I make a living communicating with top CEOs and teaching companies how too communicate everyday so I'm good there too.

February 4th, 2009, 03:15 PM	#40
Tomaso Perrone Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 26	I'm in Canada and would love to get to a real person! I have gone through the Customer Support channel - only to be bombarded by form letters I think the only way to get a real response is to talk to a person. Tom

February 5th, 2009, 11:03 AM	#41
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	There are definitely real people to talk to and I think they're being as responsive as possible. It's probably more of a "rock and a hard place" situation for them. Their jobs involve technical support and customer service and with the 5DII they're trying to respond to strategic issues and complaints rather than "push this and adjust this and if that doesn't work send it in fro service" stuff. I think they're hearing us and understanding, but they don't have specific answers until they're given them from a whole different level.

February 5th, 2009, 09:33 PM	#45
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	I would pay $100 for full manual control. Meaning, full control that is accessible with Live View in exposure test mode... (shutter, aperture, ISO) I'm just hoping Nikon will quickly release a D800 (or something) with HD video and full manual control. That should convince Canon to do the same for the 5D2 owners.