A Good Conversation With Canon

[Michael Murie]

This conversation really confirms what I already believed; that Canon didn't cripple the camera intentionally. If you look at the video capabilities of the PowerShot models, you can clearly see the video capability getting better and better; but always coming from the direction of still camera builders, not video camera makers. It's like they've had to learn everything again.

I still doubt that Canon will update the 5D - though I guess there's always hope - but I'm hopeful that if enough people get the word to Canon, it will mean that the 60D has a much better implementation!

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

The 5D can definitely work on the shoot described, but I would do it with ND filters and Nikon lenses. With practice, the camera does its job.

The lack of manual features didn't stop me from buying it. I'd buy it all over again. Unfortunately the lack of manual features irritate users on every single take. This isn't a matter of "not being professional." It's more like an amazingly beautiful pair of shoes that gives you blisters. Amateurs don't like irritants any more than pros do.

That the feature hobbles Canon lenses makes the decision unfathomable. None of the other limitations (audio, aliasing, form factor, frame rate, etc, etc) turn EF lenses into second class citizens. Only the lack of manual mode does.

I really hope Canon sees the light on this one. It would be good for all involved.

Jon and the previous poster, with all respect - no it can't.

If you produce sports of any kind (I've done 2 Olympic documentaries in the past 4 years for instance and lot's of winter sports), fussing around simply isn't an option. Even with variable NDs, the time it would take to get the correct shutter and, because you lose all settings automatically, regain your settings means you simply don't get the shots. If, as Canon claims, this is more a photojournalists tool, then all the more reason that quick adjustments of parameters that can make or break a shot is a pretty obvious necessity.

I'll make one simple point.

Not unlike a previous post, Canon's regular response so far has been, paraphrasing -"The 5D MKII wasn't developed as a professional video camera."

Well, how did we get from that to - This camera has absolutely no controls over basic parameters at all?

That's a very wide chasm.

As I've said, the camera, even with full manual control, is still not close to a professional video camera in many, many big ways.

However, given that it was completely hobbled in implementation, it simply doesn't live up to their claims of the 5DII as a photojournalists tool, and it absolutely doesn't live up to the promises of it's own White Paper regarding the control of DOF available only in high end video cameras.

This is in fact a problem.

[Jordan Oplinger]

bravo! Excellent post! While I love this camera for monkeying around and shooting events (where the "auto" mode is somewhat usable), it would NEVER stand up to a production environment where you, I dunno, actually have to put up lights? I have a lot of the same criticisms of the RED. For as much press/hype as that camera has received, there are still issues that hinder production in some cases.

[Michael Murie]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

Not unlike a previous post, Canon's regular response so far has been, paraphrasing -"The 5D MKII wasn't developed as a professional video camera."

Well, how did we get from that to - This camera has absolutely no controls over basic parameters at all?

That's a very wide chasm.

If you look at the video options in Canon's other digital cameras, I don't think any of them - like the PowerShot S5 - have controls over basic parameters when in video mode.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Michael Murie

If you look at the video options in Canon's other digital cameras, I don't think any of them - like the PowerShot S5 - have controls over basic parameters when in video mode.

For obvious reasons they never presented any of them with promotional promises like this (from Canon's 5DII White Paper):

"The 1080p HDvideo recording mode represents a paradigm shift for still photographers and videographers alike, and promises to open new creative doors and commercial opportunities for advanced, professional, and fine art photographers. With it activated, photographers and video-graphers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models—using much more affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye, ultra-wide,and image stabilized lenses."

Clearly Canon is marketing directly to me and professionals in general here. They specifically say this camera is for professionals and videographers and offers DOF control only available on high end video cameras. In fact, the video features as currently implemented on the 5DII are, by definition, Point and Shoot only.

[Michael Murie]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

...Clearly Canon is marketing directly to me and professionals in general here. They specifically say this camera is for professionals and videographers ...

I think Canon would say - and even that paragraph can be read this way - that the camera is for "professional photographers" and for "videographers." Not for professional videographers. The words professional and videographer are in two separate sentences.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they'd make a few changes too. It's so close to being great, it's maddening.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Michael Murie

I think Canon would say - and even that paragraph can be read this way - that the camera is for "professional photographers" and for "videographers." Not for professional videographers. The words professional and videographer are in two separate sentences.

Here's the deal. Nobody shoots a thirty minute clip of their kids on a VHS tape and just plays it anymore. America's Funniest Home Videos hasn't been on prime time for a long, long time.

Today, any bozo with $50 worth of software can edit two clips of video together.

Yes. Amateurs edit.

Even amateurs would like their two measly clips to match when cut together.

Amateur vs. pro is just a talking point. It's really about competence vs. incompetence.

To get competent video, we need consistency between shots. (Duh.) And to get that, we need to trick the camera. And this makes us look incompetent. I don't like looking incompetent.

"Wait, wait. I almost have it... Dang... Okay. This time I'll get it... Dang... Third time's the charm..."

That's a number of steps below amateur.

[Michael Murie]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Today, any bozo with $50 worth of software can edit two clips of video together.

Well, I went to today's America's Funniest Home Videos (YouTube) and yes the bozos are editing, but they don't even notice the exposure differences!

YouTube - Nikon D90 ????5 cat Cyami?HD

This is a Featured video! It's had 206,453 views and at least in the first page of comments, there's nothing about the problems in exposure from one cut to another. (And seriously, are people overlooking those problems because of the compelling content?!)

[Daniel Lipats]

I read in the news that many people that think they are watching HD are in fact watching SD. I think we sometimes forget that the average Joe (client or audience) under most circumstances would not take much notice at 24p or 30p, 180 degree or 360 degree shutter.

I'm not suggesting it's not important. We know the difference, and the effect it can have on the audience but our eyes are trained to look for it. Be it corporate videos, weddings, commercials or films we are creating art rather than just a 'video'.

[Mark Hahn]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

For obvious reasons they never presented any of them with promotional promises like this (from Canon's 5DII White Paper):

"The 1080p HDvideo recording mode represents a paradigm shift for still photographers and videographers alike, and promises to open new creative doors and commercial opportunities for advanced, professional, and fine art photographers. With it activated, photographers and video-graphers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models—using much more affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye, ultra-wide,and image stabilized lenses."

Clearly Canon is marketing directly to me and professionals in general here. They specifically say this camera is for professionals and videographers and offers DOF control only available on high end video cameras. In fact, the video features as currently implemented on the 5DII are, by definition, Point and Shoot only.

I feel the video is good for P&S, and high-end pros, but not in the middle. A top-notch videographer knows where this camera can help, such as in low-light and shallow depth-of-field. He also knows when not to use it and what it cannot do. He can match scenes in post.

Ironically, the semi-pro, who this should have been aimed at, struggles to get better than P&S quality productions and use it for the entire shoot. I think still photographers who want to try video fall into this semi-pro category.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

I think still photographers who want to try video fall into this semi-pro category.

And, ironically, if anybody understands what aperture, shutter speed and ISO mean, it's still photographers. It's not like this is a microwave oven that happens to have a video feature.

[Jim Giberti]

No offense guys but these are non-issues in this discussion. I don't know of a single professional who makes a living or a penny via youtube. That is by definition the home of amateur video.

On the other hand, professionals deliver their products for broadcast on national and regional networks and distributed at the highest quality media/compression possible for playback on VGA, SD and often on huge wide screens for corporate and other film making...even serious wedding shooters need a look as good as the wedding photography to make top dollar.

The fact that Joe the Plumber still laughs at "Ow My Balls" shot on a pocketknife and edited on PlaySkool just ain't what the 5D MKII is about. And if you think that cutting different shutter speeds together in the same timeline doesn't compromise and even ruin the project, then you really haven't worked at this level.

Different shutter speeds have a great place in creative acquisition - when you are going for a specific look and when you can control them.

[Jay Bloomfield]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

...Different shutter speeds have a great place in creative acquisition - when you are going for a specific look and when you can control them.

Could you elaborate on that? Shutter speeds in still photography will give you a certain look. But varying the shutter speed in videography is far more inflexible, because of the interaction with frame rate. The further the shutter speed is away from double the inverse of the frame rate, the worse the results are going to look. That's the whole point of trying to achieve a 180 degree shutter. I don't think any of us yet, exactly understand the algorithm that Canon uses to govern the interaction of shutter speed, aperture and ISO in the 5D2, but one would guess that the shutter speed tries to stay as close to 1/60, as it can, before some other factor intercedes.

Sure, you can shoot video at 1/10 sec or 1/1000 sec on many camcorders, but the result is a "special effect" and probably not what was intended. Fast shutter speeds won't stop high speed action properly, unless they are done on a special, high frame rate camcorder.

[John Vincent]

Jim, absolutely great thread. You more or less nail exactly why many people who haven't bought the camera - although very interested - are still on the fence (I'm one of them).

You also nail why people who have bought the cam are frustrated. Your point that even if everything was fully adjustable, it still wouldn't be a video camera is spot on.

john

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Jay Bloomfield

...Shutter speeds in still photography will give you a certain look. But varying the shutter speed in videography is far more inflexible, because of the interaction with frame rate.

The Normandy scenes in Saving Private Ryan and the action scenes in the Bourne movies are great examples of how fast shutter speeds can be put to use. We want that look where it makes sense, and we absolutely need to avoid it where it doesn't.

I don't think any of us yet, exactly understand the algorithm that Canon uses to govern the interaction of shutter speed, aperture and ISO in the 5D2, but one would guess that the shutter speed tries to stay as close to 1/60, as it can, before some other factor intercedes.

Regarding the 5D Mark II shutter speeds, 1/60 is not achievable. I can shoot at virtually any ISO at ~1/45 (actual, not reported), and I can shoot at 1/45, 1/80 and a number of faster speeds to at least 1/500 at 100 ISO.

See my test here: Canon 5D Mark II Shutter Exposed on Vimeo

Sure, you can shoot video at 1/10 sec or 1/1000 sec on many camcorders, but the result is a "special effect" and probably not what was intended. Fast shutter speeds won't stop high speed action properly, unless they are done on a special, high frame rate camcorder.

1/30 is the slowest possible frame rate that a 30 fps camera. You can't hold the shutter open for 1/10 sec within the limits of a 1/30 second frame.