Using the 5D Mark II as your main "camcorder"?

Julian Frost · January 28th, 2009, 02:56 PM

I love my 5D mk II, but I wouldn't use it as my main camcorder for the simple reason that I can't (easily) edit the footage. My Quad core Dell 720 desktop with 3GB RAM simply can't keep up with the high bit-rate MOV files the 5D mk II produces, which means I can capture some great footage, but can't do anything with it. So, until there's a good PC workflow for these files, I'll still be shooting all my "serious" stuff with my Canon XH-A1.

Julian

Mark Hahn · January 29th, 2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Frost

I love my 5D mk II, but I wouldn't use it as my main camcorder for the simple reason that I can't (easily) edit the footage. My Quad core Dell 720 desktop with 3GB RAM simply can't keep up with the high bit-rate MOV files the 5D mk II produces, which means I can capture some great footage, but can't do anything with it. So, until there's a good PC workflow for these files, I'll still be shooting all my "serious" stuff with my Canon XH-A1.

Julian

I downloaded a Cineform trial version for my adobe premiere CS3. It worked great (except for audio that they claim will be fixed). It quickly converted the 5D2 raw footage into their lossless format and the editing was seamless. Playback was full-speed in premiere and scrubbing was fast.

I have about the same PC hardware as you except mine is the Dell 820 (?) which has 8 gigs ram and a raid. I was blown away at how much horsepower I got for $900 at Best Buy.

The problem is that I can't afford Cineform now. I will need to wait until I have a job that justifies and pays for it.

Julian Frost · January 29th, 2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

I downloaded a Cineform trial version for my adobe premiere CS3. It worked great (except for audio that they claim will be fixed). It quickly converted the 5D2 raw footage into their lossless format and the editing was seamless. Playback was full-speed in premiere and scrubbing was fast.

I have about the same PC hardware as you except mine is the Dell 820 (?) which has 8 gigs ram and a raid.

Mark,

That's great news... for you! I have 2 Windows XP installations on my computer which I access through dual boot. One system has everything installed on it, including the kitchen sink. The other, has nothing on it, except for Adobe Production Premium CS3 and TMPGEncXpress. Both systems have the latest Microsoft patches and software updates. Cineform's Neo HD t6rial did not work reliably on either system.

While I can appreciate David's statement that the current version of Neo HD does not natively support the 5D mk II MOV files and relies on other software to make it work (like CoreAVC, which I also have), I have a little problem with the statement that its failure to work reliably is mostly due to other software that's installed. I came to this conclusion because my clean system is pretty darned clean, and it was worse on that one, than the fully loaded system!

I'm guessing your Dell 820 system came with Windows Vista 64 (or otherwise you'd have no use for 8GB of RAM), and that could have something to do with it. I doubt I'll be upgrading to Vista, ever, since XP is working fine and Vista was obviously just a long-awaited stepping-stone to Windows 7.

I'll give the newest Neo HD trial a go when it comes out... hopefully Cineform will make it so that those of us who have already used a previous trial version will still be able to try the latest version!

Julian

Mark Hahn · January 29th, 2009, 12:12 PM

I would never seriously try Neo HD until it supports 5D2. It is too expensive to take a chance.

Regarding Vista. I hated Vista when I first got it, for obvious reasons. But after two or three days of googling I have managed to disable all the protection features and new user interface crap. I am now running Vista 64 with no discernible difference from XP. I'm running all my old software and drivers with no problem. It sure beats XP 64 which was my only other choice. Also, I'm not touching Windows 7 until it's been out for some time. It is obvious they are rushing it out.

Julian Frost · January 29th, 2009, 03:06 PM

Hi Mark,

Not to change the direction of the thread too much, but I think Vista was just a stop-gap - an OS they HAD to release since it had been so long since they'd done an upgrade. Vista was released with serious problems which have only recently been corrected. I believe that Windows 7 is the operating system they were actually working on and really hoping to release. Instead, they released Vista, which pretty much everyone agrees is the equivalent of Windows ME... a bad operating system, which will do until Windows 7 is ready.

And now, back to your regular programming... :-)

Like you, I wouldn't invest in Neo HD until it natively supports the 5D mk II. I also wouldn't invest in it without being able to try it. I was so hopeful that it'd be my solution to editing the 5D mk II footage in Premier Pro CS3 and was willing (though a bit reluctant in these difficult financial times) to fork out the $500 for it. Given all the problems I had with it, all I can say is, thank goodness for the free trial! As you've suggested, I think Cineform could easily corner the market by adding 5D mk II support to Neo Scene, or even create an affordable standalone application which just converts 5D mk II footage for editing on the PC. Right now, I'm holding off buying anything in the hopes that Adobe will release an update for CS4 which will help those of us with 5D mk II cameras. Then, I'll probably upgrade to CS4. But if Cineform gets there first, maybe they'll get my money instead!

Julian

Noah Yuan-Vogel · January 29th, 2009, 03:57 PM

Not to go too far with your change of direction of this thread but I'm not sure I agree about vista being an incomplete windows version. It certainly had issues to begin with but they were mostly related to 3rd party support which I think is probably related to XP's dominance as an OS for so many years. Nowadays there is almost no software/hardware that supports XP that doesnt support vista. I'm running Windows Server 2008 64bit basically set up as a workstation OS and its nearly identical to Vista 64bit. If you look at Microsoft's versioning (Microsoft Windows - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) youll see that ME was still essentially NT4 (win98) based. I believe Vista is the first time that the consumer OS and server OS have been essentially running the same kernel versions. XP was always in its own consumer class while XP 64bit and Server 2003 were in a more professional class.

I dont doubt Windows 7 should bring some interesting developments especially once minwin kernel is fully implemented, but at the moment, the Windows 7 beta that is available and is actually Windows Version 6.1 probably isnt much more than some windows 7 features added on top of vista.

:) ok ill stop talking computers on a video forum

Mark Williams · January 29th, 2009, 04:41 PM

Take a look at
SportsShooter.com - This Time - Robert Caplin Video
This might help one decide about the 5d being a primary camcorder.

David Koo · January 29th, 2009, 10:26 PM

"Holy Windows Nightmare Batman!"

This thread sure made are strange turn (from a Final Cut Pro Mac user...)

;-)

Daniel Lipats · January 29th, 2009, 11:50 PM

I'm a bit off topic too. I understand David was asking about informal videography but my response is more general.

After having used the 5D2 in some personal and client projects I would have to say that under most circumstances, especially live videography the 5D2 can not replace a camcorder. It is a powerful tool for sure, and in some respects a better and more sophisticated tool.

It's just not practical to do live videos and pull focus at the same time, especially with a single operator. It's a gamble and one slip easily ruins a shot that you will never get another take on. This can lead to a huge disaster. You don't always have a chance to measure and place focus marks. Audio is also a concern, requiring clean recording off camera and ideally a slate to sync. Finally, even adjusting exposure takes some tinkering.

It only takes one person to monitor sound and operate an EX1, the 5D2 needs an entire crew. However, when you do have an opportunity to get the perfect shot with the 5D2 the results are stunning.

I know some have already proven me wrong and have shot shot some great live material. I don't mean to discourage anybody. Just be prepared.

Christopher Witz · January 30th, 2009, 08:52 AM

I personally think a lot of people are obsessing over this thing a bit much. This camera produces fantastic moving images! Stop worrying about shooting wide open and let the camera do it's thing and then "lock" it.... want a faster f-stop?... put your hand in front of the lens and let it open up, lock it, take your hand away, and scroll the wheel until the display looks right for the shot. It's that simple. The sensor is so big that even at f4 with a mid range lens the DOF is fairly shallow... heck, the kit 24-105 can be used for just about everything other then wildlife.

Any film maker wanting great audio is going to want to acquire it off camera anyways... so invest some friendship in a sound professional. Otherwise invest in the Beachtech that appears to have a trick for the cameras auto audio gain issue....

Just imagine what Lucien Ballard, Conrad Hall or Raoul Coutard do if they had ths little gem in the hands?

Go shoot something!

Live event filming? that's a job for a camera that has timecode and a at least a 7x lens. This is not the right tool for that job.... Horses of courses.

January 29th, 2009, 04:41 PM	#22
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	Take a look at SportsShooter.com - This Time - Robert Caplin Video This might help one decide about the 5d being a primary camcorder. __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

January 28th, 2009, 02:56 PM	#16
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	I love my 5D mk II, but I wouldn't use it as my main camcorder for the simple reason that I can't (easily) edit the footage. My Quad core Dell 720 desktop with 3GB RAM simply can't keep up with the high bit-rate MOV files the 5D mk II produces, which means I can capture some great footage, but can't do anything with it. So, until there's a good PC workflow for these files, I'll still be shooting all my "serious" stuff with my Canon XH-A1. Julian

January 29th, 2009, 12:12 PM	#19
Mark Hahn Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 277	I would never seriously try Neo HD until it supports 5D2. It is too expensive to take a chance. Regarding Vista. I hated Vista when I first got it, for obvious reasons. But after two or three days of googling I have managed to disable all the protection features and new user interface crap. I am now running Vista 64 with no discernible difference from XP. I'm running all my old software and drivers with no problem. It sure beats XP 64 which was my only other choice. Also, I'm not touching Windows 7 until it's been out for some time. It is obvious they are rushing it out.

January 29th, 2009, 03:06 PM	#20
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	Hi Mark, Not to change the direction of the thread too much, but I think Vista was just a stop-gap - an OS they HAD to release since it had been so long since they'd done an upgrade. Vista was released with serious problems which have only recently been corrected. I believe that Windows 7 is the operating system they were actually working on and really hoping to release. Instead, they released Vista, which pretty much everyone agrees is the equivalent of Windows ME... a bad operating system, which will do until Windows 7 is ready. And now, back to your regular programming... :-) Like you, I wouldn't invest in Neo HD until it natively supports the 5D mk II. I also wouldn't invest in it without being able to try it. I was so hopeful that it'd be my solution to editing the 5D mk II footage in Premier Pro CS3 and was willing (though a bit reluctant in these difficult financial times) to fork out the $500 for it. Given all the problems I had with it, all I can say is, thank goodness for the free trial! As you've suggested, I think Cineform could easily corner the market by adding 5D mk II support to Neo Scene, or even create an affordable standalone application which just converts 5D mk II footage for editing on the PC. Right now, I'm holding off buying anything in the hopes that Adobe will release an update for CS4 which will help those of us with 5D mk II cameras. Then, I'll probably upgrade to CS4. But if Cineform gets there first, maybe they'll get my money instead! Julian

January 29th, 2009, 03:57 PM	#21
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	Not to go too far with your change of direction of this thread but I'm not sure I agree about vista being an incomplete windows version. It certainly had issues to begin with but they were mostly related to 3rd party support which I think is probably related to XP's dominance as an OS for so many years. Nowadays there is almost no software/hardware that supports XP that doesnt support vista. I'm running Windows Server 2008 64bit basically set up as a workstation OS and its nearly identical to Vista 64bit. If you look at Microsoft's versioning (Microsoft Windows - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) youll see that ME was still essentially NT4 (win98) based. I believe Vista is the first time that the consumer OS and server OS have been essentially running the same kernel versions. XP was always in its own consumer class while XP 64bit and Server 2003 were in a more professional class. I dont doubt Windows 7 should bring some interesting developments especially once minwin kernel is fully implemented, but at the moment, the Windows 7 beta that is available and is actually Windows Version 6.1 probably isnt much more than some windows 7 features added on top of vista. :) ok ill stop talking computers on a video forum

January 29th, 2009, 10:26 PM	#23
David Koo Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 51	"Holy Windows Nightmare Batman!" This thread sure made are strange turn (from a Final Cut Pro Mac user...) ;-)

January 29th, 2009, 11:50 PM	#24
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I'm a bit off topic too. I understand David was asking about informal videography but my response is more general. After having used the 5D2 in some personal and client projects I would have to say that under most circumstances, especially live videography the 5D2 can not replace a camcorder. It is a powerful tool for sure, and in some respects a better and more sophisticated tool. It's just not practical to do live videos and pull focus at the same time, especially with a single operator. It's a gamble and one slip easily ruins a shot that you will never get another take on. This can lead to a huge disaster. You don't always have a chance to measure and place focus marks. Audio is also a concern, requiring clean recording off camera and ideally a slate to sync. Finally, even adjusting exposure takes some tinkering. It only takes one person to monitor sound and operate an EX1, the 5D2 needs an entire crew. However, when you do have an opportunity to get the perfect shot with the 5D2 the results are stunning. I know some have already proven me wrong and have shot shot some great live material. I don't mean to discourage anybody. Just be prepared.

January 30th, 2009, 08:52 AM	#25
Christopher Witz Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 591	I personally think a lot of people are obsessing over this thing a bit much. This camera produces fantastic moving images! Stop worrying about shooting wide open and let the camera do it's thing and then "lock" it.... want a faster f-stop?... put your hand in front of the lens and let it open up, lock it, take your hand away, and scroll the wheel until the display looks right for the shot. It's that simple. The sensor is so big that even at f4 with a mid range lens the DOF is fairly shallow... heck, the kit 24-105 can be used for just about everything other then wildlife. Any film maker wanting great audio is going to want to acquire it off camera anyways... so invest some friendship in a sound professional. Otherwise invest in the Beachtech that appears to have a trick for the cameras auto audio gain issue.... Just imagine what Lucien Ballard, Conrad Hall or Raoul Coutard do if they had ths little gem in the hands? Go shoot something! Live event filming? that's a job for a camera that has timecode and a at least a 7x lens. This is not the right tool for that job.... Horses of courses.