5D MK II crush black issue?

Yang Wen · January 13th, 2009, 10:16 PM

So how do we resolve the codec issue?

Jon Fairhurst · January 14th, 2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

So how do we resolve the codec issue?

Personally, I re-wrap the .mov file as an .m4v file in Quicktime, then I apply the Computer => Studio RGB color corrector in Vegas. After that, I render proxies using the Cineform codec.

On a Mac, you can use Color to decode the .mov files. I'm not sure the best solution in Adobe, though After Effects might be able to handle the .,m4v files and render proxies.

Noah Yuan-Vogel · January 14th, 2009, 08:26 AM

has anyone found that this issue only occurs in 1080p material, whereas 480p material seem to have correct levels? btw why not just create a picture style that compresses the values to fit broadcast values?

ive been playing with the picture style editor and it seems reasonably powerful despite the poor curves implementation. ive already made picture styles that push and pull 1 stop (to allow iso exposure control while maintaining control over shutter) and match my ex1's color and hypergamma curve. i may try to shoot some tests with these picture styles outside today.

Joey Atilano · January 14th, 2009, 08:38 AM

Hey Jon,
You say you use quicktime? Do you use QT pro? I tried following the mediacoder thing but I couldn't figure it out. It quicktime easier/faster ?

Right now I just render to cineform for editing.

Yang Wen · January 14th, 2009, 10:13 AM

joey: So you take the original video files from the 5D2 and rendering them in Cineform's HDLink? Does that resolve the black crush issue in just that one step?

Noah: WHA??? the 5D2 records in 480P mode also? Basically very proper looking SD videO???

Keith Paisley · January 14th, 2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Atilano

Hey Jon,
You say you use quicktime? Do you use QT pro? I tried following the mediacoder thing but I couldn't figure it out. It quicktime easier/faster ?

Right now I just render to cineform for editing.

Quicktime is plenty easy/fast but it's not as easy to automate (batch) as mediacoder. And you have to pay for the privilege of re-wrapping the files. I actually bought QT pro and then remembered about mediacoder. I only use mediacoder now. But then I end up transcoding all the clips to cineform hdv, and edit (and render) from those. Sure there's a bit of a generational loss, but for my purposes (web - 720p) it's not a major deal. If I start offering our stuff in blu-ray or other formats down the road I will probably go through the trouble of re-rendering directly from the source .mp4 files, but that's easy enough to facilitate with Proxy Stream

Joey Atilano · January 14th, 2009, 11:33 AM

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

Jon Fairhurst · January 14th, 2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

...btw why not just create a picture style that compresses the values to fit broadcast values?

Noah,

That was my first assumption - that one could create a picture style that would change the gain and offset as needed. Unfortunately, there is no simple gain/offset control in the Picture Style Editor. The program includes a curve editor that can accept ten custom points, but the algorithm used is quite strange. If you enter a point that changes the slope quickly, the program will quickly cause areas of high gain or zero gain - it tends to create stair steps instead of smooth curves.

For The Last Outpost, we used a style with low contrast and sharpness, and we created a custom curve that lifted the blacks as much as possible without causing stair steps. The result wasn't bad, but rewrapping the MOV files, or equivalent, is cleaner, and leaves the curve available for creative use.

The Last Outpost on Vimeo

Joey,

Yes, I use Quicktime Pro. Rewrapping is fast and simple - it's like a "save as" operation. However, not all NLEs open the m4v result.

Yang Wen · January 14th, 2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Atilano

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

Joey: How long does that render take? close to realtime I hope?

Edit: Oh I just read that it doesn't fix the crush black issue... argghhh.... So is there no solution? Why did Canon implement a camera with this problem??? arghhh..

Joey Atilano · January 14th, 2009, 12:37 PM

If it works in Vegas Im in.

Keith Paisley · January 14th, 2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Atilano

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

yes to the re-wrapping question, but I don't know about whether or not they'll play on a PS3. I've tried playing the files (straight out of the camera and rewrappered) on an xbox360 and can confirm that they won't play on the 360.

Keith Paisley · January 14th, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Joey: How long does that render take? close to realtime I hope?

Edit: Oh I just read that it doesn't fix the crush black issue... argghhh.... So is there no solution? Why did Canon implement a camera with this problem??? arghhh..

It's not realtime. The best route I've found is to do all of these in batches.

First, batch re-wrap to .mp4 using mediacoder to circumvent the colorspace BS (it's worth it to get it working :D) - this step is pretty fast - faster than realtime

Then batch the files to cineform hdv using Proxy Stream in Vegas. I just kick off the batch job overnight.

January 14th, 2009, 08:38 AM	#19
Joey Atilano Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Garden Grove CA Posts: 239	Hey Jon, You say you use quicktime? Do you use QT pro? I tried following the mediacoder thing but I couldn't figure it out. It quicktime easier/faster ? Right now I just render to cineform for editing. __________________ My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/lucasberg

January 14th, 2009, 11:33 AM	#22
Joey Atilano Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Garden Grove CA Posts: 239	Yang , I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks. I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive. Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3? __________________ My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/lucasberg

January 14th, 2009, 12:37 PM	#25
Joey Atilano Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Garden Grove CA Posts: 239	If it works in Vegas Im in. __________________ My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/lucasberg

January 13th, 2009, 10:16 PM	#16
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	So how do we resolve the codec issue?

January 14th, 2009, 08:26 AM	#18
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	has anyone found that this issue only occurs in 1080p material, whereas 480p material seem to have correct levels? btw why not just create a picture style that compresses the values to fit broadcast values? ive been playing with the picture style editor and it seems reasonably powerful despite the poor curves implementation. ive already made picture styles that push and pull 1 stop (to allow iso exposure control while maintaining control over shutter) and match my ex1's color and hypergamma curve. i may try to shoot some tests with these picture styles outside today.

January 14th, 2009, 10:13 AM	#20
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	joey: So you take the original video files from the 5D2 and rendering them in Cineform's HDLink? Does that resolve the black crush issue in just that one step? Noah: WHA??? the 5D2 records in 480P mode also? Basically very proper looking SD videO???