Can firmware change these?

Jon Fairhurst · December 9th, 2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Let's make it three... audio monitoring would be so easy to enable on this camera.

Probably true, but there might be a hardware limitation, depending on the architecture.

The Zoom H4 does audio monitoring doesn't it?

Jon Fairhurst · December 9th, 2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Things that will likely require much more horsepower than the 5D2 is capable of:

8. Sample every pixel instead of one in three, to reduce aliasing artifacts greatly.

My guess is that the camera sums nine pixels (3x3) to make one pixel, rather than sub-sampling.

Digitally, they could filter, rather than sum, but that would definitely take some extra horses.

They could also apply an optical low pass filter. We'd get a beautiful 720p output, but 1080 would be a bit blurred. (I assume that adding my own OLFP for video would void the warranty - and it would make the stills too soft...)

I hope to try a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1/4 on a resolution chart, when I get the chance...

Filters and the Film Look

http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct...emnum=72BDFX14

Daniel Browning · December 9th, 2008, 06:33 PM

The moire is very bad, much worse than anything I've ever seen. Plus, it's worse in one dimension. I think it indicates that it is only sampling every third row. It is perhaps sampling every column, at least, and summing those together.

Of course, even if Canon was sampling all rows and columns, there would still be moire/aliasing due to the OLPF (too weak for video), 1/3 resampling (depending on how they do it), demosiac, in-camera processing, and resizing (again, depending on algorithm).

Quote:

I hope to try a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1/4 on a resolution chart, when I get the chance...

I, too, will test a diffusion filter to try and suppress the very worst aliasing/moire.

Jon Fairhurst · December 9th, 2008, 07:28 PM

It's clear that Canon is filtering horizontally, which is a good thing. Vertically, they are row skipping or something. It's not clear without some detailed analysis.

We can film people in pinstripes just fine, but the actors have to stand vertically.

There is an opportunity for a custom vertical-only diffuser. There is also an opportunity to do some unique post processing that should be able to stitch the RGB sites together a bit better than what they can do in-camera. It would be like de-bayering with a twist.

But even right out of the box, the images look really good. Applying the right optical filters and post processing, however, would make 480p images - and possibly 720p images - look near perfect, even with a zone plate.

Frankly, I'm not too worried though. Back in the NTSC days I developed encoders and decoders and got a number of patents on the subject. NTSC zone plates look much, much worse than the 5D MKII results. I would say that the NTSC format and broadcasting business model that it enabled weren't exactly failures.

To me, the 5D MkII enables us to use great lenses and to get great results in low light. It gives us the opportunity to tell a story using techniques that were previously only available to well-funded directors. We can develop our chops, and if our films have a bit of aliasing, so be it.

The day one has a project that's worthy and can attract funding, sure, get a RED ONE/Scarlet/EPIC, shoot on 35mm or whatever. Making that jump from the 5D MkII and experience with a variety of lenses and filters wouldn't be such a stretch. And avoiding the cost, hassle and lack of light provided by 35mm adapters is a good thing.

Okay, back on thread... One more feature request...

A video post-processing utility that cleans up the color aliasing on fast horizontal lines.

Then again, this will probably be available from a 3rd party before we sing Auld Lang Syne.

John Sandel · December 9th, 2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

… canon didn't enable 24p because they didn't want to pay the 24p license.

What license do you mean?

Isn't the 24p license for 3:2 insertion into 60i? I don't think it applies to any video recorded at that scan frequency, does it?

Nevermind... Got my answer here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...p-license.html

Marcus Marchesseault · December 10th, 2008, 01:03 AM

"#1 - Full Manual Video Control
WHY? - I'd rather buy Canon EF lenses, but if they want people to buy Nikon...

#2 - 24p/25p
WHY? - Blu-ray supports 24p, not 30p; Don't insult the European market."

I agree with those choices and the reasons even though the 25p is of no use to me. These choices and the other two I like would benefit Canon the most and should be feasible:

3. Stitch 4Gig files to have seamless recording. It turns into a real video camera with this feature and is purely software without the need for expensive processing power or new hardware.

4. Audio monitoring or at least an audio levels display. Separate audio recording is fine for movie shorts but it is a hassle in editing paying job stuff. Without monitoring of some sort the recording can't be trusted. It should be a feasible addition.

OKAY, please don't put up the desire for RAW/uncompressed video in the list for Canon to add. It won't happen and will make us seem unrealistic and impossible to satisfy. Raw HD video would be a data stream in the neighborhood of 1,492mbps (1920x1080x30fpsx24bits/pixel for 8 bits per color)and I don't think anyone of us is going to carry around a 15K rpm SCSI RAID in our camera bags. Just make the best color profile with correct color and wide contrast range that gets applied before compression and you should have plenty to work with in color correction/grading.

Jon Fairhurst · December 10th, 2008, 02:11 AM

Yeah, Uncompressed RAW ain't gonna happen. The feasible way to get uncompressed would be via a clean HDMI output, but Canon clearly decided to cripple that feature for whatever reason.

If the camera were to record RAW, it would need to be compressed like REDCODE, which uses wavelet encoding. Canon would either need to license REDCODE or develop a brand new format after the horse has left the barn. It ain't gonna happen.

Fortunately, the MPEG-4 encoding in the 5D MkII is darn good, considering it's real time and battery powered. I think the engineers did an excellent job in choosing a cost effective solution that meets or exceeds all requirements in this level of the market.

Regarding 4GB stitching, it would be nice, but there's also the heat issue to consider. Again, I think this was a conscious decision on Canon's part.

The lack of full control was also a conscious decision, but I don't think they considered that they would drive us to Nikon lenses. Oops. The lack of 24/25p was conscious, but boneheaded, considering the size of Europe. Then again, the lack of 24p didn't stop me from adding my name to the waiting list.

The lack of audio monitoring might not have been a conscious decision. It might have been an "I wish we had though of that at the time" decision. It doesn't hurt to ask for it. We can monitor the video, can't we?

However, the bigger audio issue for photographers is the lack of audio notation. That one baffles me. My old Minolta P&S had that feature more than half a decade ago.

Luis de la Cerda · December 12th, 2008, 02:22 AM

I was thinking if canon are so concerned about competing with their pro video divison that they intentionally crippled the camera, why not have the video divison sell us an "unlock package"? I'd be willing to pay some money for 24p, full manual control, codec bitrate control, manual audio and anything else they come up with. :)

Just a thought.

Evan Donn · December 12th, 2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

I was thinking if canon are so concerned about competing with their pro video divison that they intentionally crippled the camera, why not have the video divison sell us an "unlock package"? I'd be willing to pay some money for 24p, full manual control, codec bitrate control, manual audio and anything else they come up with. :)

Just a thought.

Me too. At $3500 with a lens I think this camera is a bargain, video wise - other than the crippled manual controls. 24p would be nice but I can live with 30p a lot easier than I can live without manual controls.

My current decision is whether to keep the 5D and my XHA1 and use each as appropriate or sell both and get an EX1 - if the 5D had full manual control I wouldn't even consider the sony, so if such an unlock package was within the $3k price difference it wouldn't even be a question for me.

It's basically what they already do in the video division - $3000+ difference between two models with nothing but a minor hardware difference (XHA1 vs. G1 & XL-H1a vs s) - but that minor difference makes all the difference to a pro who needs it while keeping it cheaper for those who don't need it.

Jon Fairhurst · December 12th, 2008, 12:10 PM

My guess is that the unlock option will be called the 5D Mark III, or the 1D Mark IV...

Don Miller · December 12th, 2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

I was thinking if canon are so concerned about competing with their pro video divison that they intentionally crippled the camera, why not have the video divison sell us an "unlock package"? I'd be willing to pay some money for 24p, full manual control, codec bitrate control, manual audio and anything else they come up with. :)

Just a thought.

I thinks what they're going to do about true video lenses is part of the problem. A 5DII type sensor released from their video business they may not use a full FF sensor. But they still have to come up with a form factor to take big lenses. How do they price that? SLR lenses benefit from mass production. They won't have that benefit with video lenses for a big chip.

Perhaps part of the reason Canon hasn't come out with more lenses for their removable lens 1/3 3 ccd camera is that this is a dead end.

Canon doesn't like to lead in the way. Right now it looks like they should. It's very hard to predict what there video division will do with big cmos chips. The photo division seems to have an easier strategy.

John Brinks · December 12th, 2008, 12:39 PM

Unfortunately i think the 12 minute file size limit is not due to buffer or memory porblems, it is due to the Image sensor over-heating.

I think the 5dmkII is more of a proof of concept for canon... they are showing the world that they can make a full frame camera with eceptional image quality, for a very reasonable sum!!! the next generation of the XL series will most likely have this 21mp imager, and take full size Canon lenses...

Larry Vaughn · December 13th, 2008, 01:22 AM

The 4 gig file size limitation is due to the fact that the FAT 32 file system has a max size of 4 gigs. NTFS is higher, but the EOS 5D records video with the fat 32 system. So, each file has to be less than the maximum. You can start over after 12 minutes. When is the last time you shot for 12 minutes?

Marcus Marchesseault · December 13th, 2008, 04:37 AM

"When is the last time you shot for 12 minutes?"

Last Thursday. I doubt the congressman would have appreciated the cameraman interrupting his answers three times during his interview.

It would be easy enough for the 5DII to just start a new file at the end of 4Gig. I can shoot a lot of things in under 12 minutes but some things can't stand the interruption.

Don Miller · December 13th, 2008, 11:40 AM

If you had separate continuous audio the interruption would be easy to cover. But why bother. The 5DII is not and doesn't need to be a universal tool.

December 9th, 2008, 07:28 PM	#19
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	It's clear that Canon is filtering horizontally, which is a good thing. Vertically, they are row skipping or something. It's not clear without some detailed analysis. We can film people in pinstripes just fine, but the actors have to stand vertically. There is an opportunity for a custom vertical-only diffuser. There is also an opportunity to do some unique post processing that should be able to stitch the RGB sites together a bit better than what they can do in-camera. It would be like de-bayering with a twist. But even right out of the box, the images look really good. Applying the right optical filters and post processing, however, would make 480p images - and possibly 720p images - look near perfect, even with a zone plate. Frankly, I'm not too worried though. Back in the NTSC days I developed encoders and decoders and got a number of patents on the subject. NTSC zone plates look much, much worse than the 5D MKII results. I would say that the NTSC format and broadcasting business model that it enabled weren't exactly failures. To me, the 5D MkII enables us to use great lenses and to get great results in low light. It gives us the opportunity to tell a story using techniques that were previously only available to well-funded directors. We can develop our chops, and if our films have a bit of aliasing, so be it. The day one has a project that's worthy and can attract funding, sure, get a RED ONE/Scarlet/EPIC, shoot on 35mm or whatever. Making that jump from the 5D MkII and experience with a variety of lenses and filters wouldn't be such a stretch. And avoiding the cost, hassle and lack of light provided by 35mm adapters is a good thing. Okay, back on thread... One more feature request... A video post-processing utility that cleans up the color aliasing on fast horizontal lines. Then again, this will probably be available from a 3rd party before we sing Auld Lang Syne. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

December 10th, 2008, 02:11 AM	#22
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Yeah, Uncompressed RAW ain't gonna happen. The feasible way to get uncompressed would be via a clean HDMI output, but Canon clearly decided to cripple that feature for whatever reason. If the camera were to record RAW, it would need to be compressed like REDCODE, which uses wavelet encoding. Canon would either need to license REDCODE or develop a brand new format after the horse has left the barn. It ain't gonna happen. Fortunately, the MPEG-4 encoding in the 5D MkII is darn good, considering it's real time and battery powered. I think the engineers did an excellent job in choosing a cost effective solution that meets or exceeds all requirements in this level of the market. Regarding 4GB stitching, it would be nice, but there's also the heat issue to consider. Again, I think this was a conscious decision on Canon's part. The lack of full control was also a conscious decision, but I don't think they considered that they would drive us to Nikon lenses. Oops. The lack of 24/25p was conscious, but boneheaded, considering the size of Europe. Then again, the lack of 24p didn't stop me from adding my name to the waiting list. The lack of audio monitoring might not have been a conscious decision. It might have been an "I wish we had though of that at the time" decision. It doesn't hurt to ask for it. We can monitor the video, can't we? However, the bigger audio issue for photographers is the lack of audio notation. That one baffles me. My old Minolta P&S had that feature more than half a decade ago. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

December 12th, 2008, 12:10 PM	#25
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	My guess is that the unlock option will be called the 5D Mark III, or the 1D Mark IV... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

December 13th, 2008, 01:22 AM	#28
Larry Vaughn Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 201	NTFS vs FAT32 The 4 gig file size limitation is due to the fact that the FAT 32 file system has a max size of 4 gigs. NTFS is higher, but the EOS 5D records video with the fat 32 system. So, each file has to be less than the maximum. You can start over after 12 minutes. When is the last time you shot for 12 minutes?

December 10th, 2008, 01:03 AM	#21
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	"#1 - Full Manual Video Control WHY? - I'd rather buy Canon EF lenses, but if they want people to buy Nikon... #2 - 24p/25p WHY? - Blu-ray supports 24p, not 30p; Don't insult the European market." I agree with those choices and the reasons even though the 25p is of no use to me. These choices and the other two I like would benefit Canon the most and should be feasible: 3. Stitch 4Gig files to have seamless recording. It turns into a real video camera with this feature and is purely software without the need for expensive processing power or new hardware. 4. Audio monitoring or at least an audio levels display. Separate audio recording is fine for movie shorts but it is a hassle in editing paying job stuff. Without monitoring of some sort the recording can't be trusted. It should be a feasible addition. OKAY, please don't put up the desire for RAW/uncompressed video in the list for Canon to add. It won't happen and will make us seem unrealistic and impossible to satisfy. Raw HD video would be a data stream in the neighborhood of 1,492mbps (1920x1080x30fpsx24bits/pixel for 8 bits per color)and I don't think anyone of us is going to carry around a 15K rpm SCSI RAID in our camera bags. Just make the best color profile with correct color and wide contrast range that gets applied before compression and you should have plenty to work with in color correction/grading.

December 12th, 2008, 02:22 AM	#23
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 181	I was thinking if canon are so concerned about competing with their pro video divison that they intentionally crippled the camera, why not have the video divison sell us an "unlock package"? I'd be willing to pay some money for 24p, full manual control, codec bitrate control, manual audio and anything else they come up with. :) Just a thought.

December 12th, 2008, 12:39 PM	#27
John Brinks Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Phoenix Az Posts: 69	Unfortunately i think the 12 minute file size limit is not due to buffer or memory porblems, it is due to the Image sensor over-heating. I think the 5dmkII is more of a proof of concept for canon... they are showing the world that they can make a full frame camera with eceptional image quality, for a very reasonable sum!!! the next generation of the XL series will most likely have this 21mp imager, and take full size Canon lenses...

December 13th, 2008, 04:37 AM	#29
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	"When is the last time you shot for 12 minutes?" Last Thursday. I doubt the congressman would have appreciated the cameraman interrupting his answers three times during his interview. It would be easy enough for the 5DII to just start a new file at the end of 4Gig. I can shoot a lot of things in under 12 minutes but some things can't stand the interruption.

December 13th, 2008, 11:40 AM	#30
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	If you had separate continuous audio the interruption would be easy to cover. But why bother. The 5DII is not and doesn't need to be a universal tool.