Vegas Workflow

Mike Calla · December 17th, 2008, 06:49 PM

DOH!!

I see it now! Thanks Jon!

Stupid Vegas, you'd think that the scopes would be independent of the preview quality!!! That should be a no brainer Sony!

Daniel Browning · December 18th, 2008, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

I see Carbon Coder, a universal transcoding application for $20 in a few places

[link to web site removed.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

Ohh... sorry, I wonder if the cost i saw on their website is a business license cost?

No, $5000 is the normal cost. The reason it appears for just $20 on that web site is because they are making illegal copies and profiting from copyright infringement.

Oleg Kalyan · December 18th, 2008, 02:57 AM

Sorry about posting the link, I saw it for $20 in a few places.
Did not know they were illegal.

Chris Barcellos · December 18th, 2008, 11:15 AM

So I posted this issue over at the Vegas forum, seeking a resolution to this clipping issue there within Vegas, but no one has really come up with an answer.

Jay Bloomfield · December 27th, 2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I tried TMPGEnc 4.0 Express (a reasonably flexible encoder of various formats for $99), but it had the same problem. It also relies on the Quicktime file decoder to open the .MOV file.

It seems that custom presets are the only workaround, short of buying a custom ($$$) Quicktime decoder.

It would be interesting to know if there was something in the file.MOV metadata that could be tweaked to make Quicktime decode it properly...

As I stated a bit further up in the thread, the "almost free" CoreAVC decoder can be used to replace the QT codec (but I would try the demo first, to make sure it works with the 5DMKII files):

CoreAVC.com: World's Fastest High Definition H.264 Video Software Decoder

(click on the first screen shot on this link)

As you can see, you can select either computer RGB or Studio RGB for both input and output. Note, that you have to make sure that the Direct Show file merit for CoreAVC is higher than that for QT, as the file merit dictates which codec is used by default by Windows. When you install CoreAVC it should automatically have a higher file merit than QT. CoreAVC will work with Premiere, After Effects, TMPGenc Xpress and any other Windows-based NLE that uses DirectShow. Unfortunately, Vegas uses the "older style" Video for Windows codecs (VFW) and it uses it's own built-in h264 VFW decoder. Vegas will not use CoreAVC.

Keith Paisley · December 29th, 2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Bloomfield

As I stated a bit further up in the thread, the "almost free" CoreAVC decoder can be used to replace the QT codec (but I would try the demo first, to make sure it works with the 5DMKII files):

CoreAVC.com: World's Fastest High Definition H.264 Video Software Decoder

(click on the first screen shot on this link)

As you can see, you can select either computer RGB or Studio RGB for both input and output. Note, that you have to make sure that the Direct Show file merit for CoreAVC is higher than that for QT, as the file merit dictates which codec is used by default by Windows. When you install CoreAVC it should automatically have a higher file merit than QT. CoreAVC will work with Premiere, After Effects, TMPGenc Xpress and any other Windows-based NLE that uses DirectShow. Unfortunately, Vegas uses the "older style" Video for Windows codecs (VFW) and it uses it's own built-in h264 VFW decoder. Vegas will not use CoreAVC.

this seems like an interesting alternative but what would be the most efficient way to work it into a Vegas workflow?

I was thinking there might be a way to manipulate the files into the timeline using a combination of avisynth and something that proxies the avisynth output into a standard avi file. To this end, I've tried 'MAKEavis' from ffdshow but it hasn't worked very reliably. One thing I'm unclear of is how reliably avisynth can parse the quicktime files and then how to properly promote CoreAVC so it is used instead of quicktime's own decoder.

Has anybody else figured this out? I want to avoid using intermediate files if at all possible because that would add several additional layers of hassle and resource intensiveness to the whole process. It's almost 2009. I just want to edit video and not jump through hoops to make stuff happen.

Sean Seah · January 1st, 2009, 08:33 PM

Wow this is tough. I'm looking to get my hands on the 5D to work with the EX1. However the post job looks very intimidating at the moment!

Steven Polley · January 1st, 2009, 08:48 PM

I see where they have lowered the price on Neo HD from Cineform. It is know around 499.00 and 199.00 upgrade if you have had Neo HDV which is now being retired. This should enable you to turn the 5d files into cineform AVI's for PC or MOV for Mac.

Sean Seah · January 4th, 2009, 08:55 PM

Anyone tried mxing mxf from the XDCAM with the mov from the 5D2? Is it workable or does the timeline mess up?

Robert Martens · January 5th, 2009, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Paisley

I was thinking there might be a way to manipulate the files into the timeline using a combination of avisynth and something that proxies the avisynth output into a standard avi file. To this end, I've tried 'MAKEavis' from ffdshow but it hasn't worked very reliably.

I've never gotten Makeavis to work, with any footage at all, since I first heard about it. Thankfully, another method has since popped up that does exactly what you describe.

Not having access to a Mark II, I downloaded the original version of this video from the Vimeo page to play with, and though I can't get my quad core XP machine to play it back in realtime, I've successfully loaded said file in various applications normally unfriendly to Avisynth through the instructions I've laid out here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...ows-users.html

I have the Vegas Pro 8.0 trial installed and though not realtime, once finished building peaks the program seems to work with the footage at an almost-workable speed. Your definition of "almost-workable" may vary significantly from mine, of course, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Keith Paisley · January 5th, 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Martens

I've never gotten Makeavis to work, with any footage at all, since I first heard about it. Thankfully, another method has since popped up that does exactly what you describe.

Not having access to a Mark II, I downloaded the original version of this video from the Vimeo page to play with, and though I can't get my quad core XP machine to play it back in realtime, I've successfully loaded said file in various applications normally unfriendly to Avisynth through the instructions I've laid out here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...ows-users.html

I have the Vegas Pro 8.0 trial installed and though not realtime, once finished building peaks the program seems to work with the footage at an almost-workable speed. Your definition of "almost-workable" may vary significantly from mine, of course, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Excellent, Robert - thanks for sharing that. I've just tried it and confirmed that this is a very useful way to bypass the flawed QT Plugin (as well as the really slow MainConcept AVC/AAC plugin) in Vegas. I currently have the CoreAVC plugin installed (trial). I imagine I will probably have to buy that now, as this plays at 2-3x the framerate on the timeline compared to playing the re-wrappered MP4 files. Now, if there were only a way to easily batch this process; making all the avisynth scripts can get to be a bit of a chore. Knowing the internet community, there's probably a tool out there...

for the record, I used the "DirectShowSource" way.

Keith Paisley · January 5th, 2009, 03:14 PM

UPDATE:

it turns out that using this method I was unable to get it to import the .avi into the timeline using the CoreAVC codec. The CoreAVC codec is the only one that seems to interpret the colorspace headers properly, so this is a bit of a setback. Apparently what was decoding it in Vegas for me was DivX. Once I removed DivX, I was able to get CoreAVC to work everywhere except in Vegas. DivX would have been fine as it definitely helped speed up the speed on the timeline, but the colorspace problems were present. CoreAVC is the only one that seems to be able to figure out the colorspace properly.

Robert, can you confirm that Vegas is 'seeing' your file as being a CoreAVC? In my case when I clicked on the properties of the media it reported that it was a DivX 6.8.something file.

Robert Martens · January 5th, 2009, 04:38 PM

For the record, you just sold me a CoreAVC license; damn it, that thing is fast. Plays the file I mentioned back in realtime, no problem at all.

Anyway, I wasn't using CoreAVC before, so I was going through the whole FFmpegSource business. Using DirectShowSource now, with the Core trial installed, I may have an answer for you. By the time the video gets through the Pismo File Mount interface via the AVFS plugin and reaches your video application, it's no longer compressed; that is to say, it's not CoreAVC or any other variant of H.264. The reason the file is reported to the Windows file system as being so large is because you're essentially creating an uncompressed version of your file on the fly. CoreAVC won't work for this not only because Vegas uses Video for Windows, while CAVC is DirectShow, but because by the time Vegas sees the video it's no longer in a format that CoreAVC can decode. Getting the PFM/AVFS combo to use CoreAVC is the whole story; if they're using it, the original file is in fact being decoded by that software.

Vegas is reporting the DivX thing only because the color space of the AVFS output is YV12 and the only appropriate VfW codec Vegas can find for that is the DivX YV12 decoder. If you add that ConvertToRGB24() to the very end of the script you're using, you'll see the file reported as "Uncompressed", and though there's significant overhead added by the conversion, it still seems to playback pretty quickly. Not being a professional compressionist or mathematician, I couldn't tell you if it's a perfect conversion, but it's the best one I'm aware of. The colorspace problems should be helped by adding matrix="Rec709" as an argument to the Convert function. The other option is PC.709, but if I understand correctly (and I very well may not, so try both of these to see what happens) the TV range of the Rec709 string is what you want. More details on all of this are in the Avisynth docs, under Color conversion and adjustment filters in the Core filters section.

As for automating the scripting process, I was thinking about this as I fell asleep last night. It looks doable with a relatively simple batch file, I'll start messing around with that and let you know how it goes.

Well, nevermind that! I should have known this would already have been taken care of: Avisynth Batch Scripter Go to the File menu, then in Settings remove the C:\ drive as the scan folder and replace with the directory containing your footage. Go back to the main interface, hit Scan and make sure all your files are present, then paste this into the window at the bottom:

DirectShowSource("%PATH%\%CLIP%.%EXT%")
ConvertToRGB24(matrix="Rec709")

Save it as a template, if you like, then click Build scripts up top to finish the process. All your footage should now have an associated avs file that can be mounted as usual.

Sean Seah · January 9th, 2009, 12:11 PM

Hi Keith, I just joined the club n I need your help to detail the workflow. I'm a little confused now but this is what I gathered.

1. Rewrap with avisynth?
2. Place it on the timeline as 720P project and render to ??

I like to mix the footage with the EX1's mxf. Any suggestion for me? Thks!

Keith Paisley · January 9th, 2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Seah

Hi Keith, I just joined the club n I need your help to detail the workflow. I'm a little confused now but this is what I gathered.

1. Rewrap with avisynth?
2. Place it on the timeline as 720P project and render to ??

I like to mix the footage with the EX1's mxf. Any suggestion for me? Thks!

I'm not sure I've settled on a "default" workflow yet. The workflow can vary a little bit depending upon your project (number of clips, etc...) but as of late, I've added a transcode (to Cineform HDV) to the process.

In general, here's what I do:
1) Dump all the .mov files onto the hard drive
2) use mediacoder to re-wrap the .mov files into .mp4 files (you're swapping containers of the H.264 video and transcoding the audio. The video data is copied over completely intact, but the audio has to be transcoded because the codec that Canon used for the audio isn't supported by .mp4. The reason we're switching containers is to get away from using the quicktime plugin that's included with vegas. It screws up the colorspace, the theory is that it's basically clipping all the values below 16 and above 235, and then using some primitive method to stretch the colorspace out - hence the gaps in the histogram). Technically you can start editing in vegas using these .mp4 files. I found that the performance is pretty miserable, though, and I've run into a few compatibility issues, so now I've started doing step 3
3) Transcode all of the .mp4 clips to cineform HDV (to facilitate this, I've been using a script I found over in the "What happens in Vegas..." forum called Proxy Stream" - it's very handy).
4) use the cineform HDV .avi files on the timeline, edit. At the moment, it seems as if this step will become permanent. I'll probably be giving Neo HD a trial to see if it helps me bypass step 2)

an alternative method using avisynth was devised by Robert Martens and it has some benefits (such as no re-wrappering required and better timeline preview/scrubbing performance), but if you have a project with many clips, it can get a little messy with all of the virtual folders. And if you've never used avisynth or messed around with the voodoo that is directshow (registering codecs, manipulating stream splitters, etc...) before, I'm sure it can be a bit intimidating.

December 17th, 2008, 06:49 PM	#31
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	DOH!! I see it now! Thanks Jon! Stupid Vegas, you'd think that the scopes would be independent of the preview quality!!! That should be a no brainer Sony! __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

December 18th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#34
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	So I posted this issue over at the Vegas forum, seeking a resolution to this clipping issue there within Vegas, but no one has really come up with an answer. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

January 1st, 2009, 08:48 PM	#38
Steven Polley New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 24	Cineform HD I see where they have lowered the price on Neo HD from Cineform. It is know around 499.00 and 199.00 upgrade if you have had Neo HDV which is now being retired. This should enable you to turn the 5d files into cineform AVI's for PC or MOV for Mac. __________________ Steven Polley www.yourinfocus.net

January 5th, 2009, 03:14 PM	#42
Keith Paisley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 190	hmmm, actually it's not quite working for me UPDATE: it turns out that using this method I was unable to get it to import the .avi into the timeline using the CoreAVC codec. The CoreAVC codec is the only one that seems to interpret the colorspace headers properly, so this is a bit of a setback. Apparently what was decoding it in Vegas for me was DivX. Once I removed DivX, I was able to get CoreAVC to work everywhere except in Vegas. DivX would have been fine as it definitely helped speed up the speed on the timeline, but the colorspace problems were present. CoreAVC is the only one that seems to be able to figure out the colorspace properly. Robert, can you confirm that Vegas is 'seeing' your file as being a CoreAVC? In my case when I clicked on the properties of the media it reported that it was a DivX 6.8.something file.

January 5th, 2009, 04:38 PM	#43
Robert Martens Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 820	For the record, you just sold me a CoreAVC license; damn it, that thing is fast. Plays the file I mentioned back in realtime, no problem at all. Anyway, I wasn't using CoreAVC before, so I was going through the whole FFmpegSource business. Using DirectShowSource now, with the Core trial installed, I may have an answer for you. By the time the video gets through the Pismo File Mount interface via the AVFS plugin and reaches your video application, it's no longer compressed; that is to say, it's not CoreAVC or any other variant of H.264. The reason the file is reported to the Windows file system as being so large is because you're essentially creating an uncompressed version of your file on the fly. CoreAVC won't work for this not only because Vegas uses Video for Windows, while CAVC is DirectShow, but because by the time Vegas sees the video it's no longer in a format that CoreAVC can decode. Getting the PFM/AVFS combo to use CoreAVC is the whole story; if they're using it, the original file is in fact being decoded by that software. Vegas is reporting the DivX thing only because the color space of the AVFS output is YV12 and the only appropriate VfW codec Vegas can find for that is the DivX YV12 decoder. If you add that ConvertToRGB24() to the very end of the script you're using, you'll see the file reported as "Uncompressed", and though there's significant overhead added by the conversion, it still seems to playback pretty quickly. Not being a professional compressionist or mathematician, I couldn't tell you if it's a perfect conversion, but it's the best one I'm aware of. The colorspace problems should be helped by adding matrix="Rec709" as an argument to the Convert function. The other option is PC.709, but if I understand correctly (and I very well may not, so try both of these to see what happens) the TV range of the Rec709 string is what you want. More details on all of this are in the Avisynth docs, under Color conversion and adjustment filters in the Core filters section. As for automating the scripting process, I was thinking about this as I fell asleep last night. It looks doable with a relatively simple batch file, I'll start messing around with that and let you know how it goes. Well, nevermind that! I should have known this would already have been taken care of: Avisynth Batch Scripter Go to the File menu, then in Settings remove the C:\ drive as the scan folder and replace with the directory containing your footage. Go back to the main interface, hit Scan and make sure all your files are present, then paste this into the window at the bottom: DirectShowSource("%PATH%\%CLIP%.%EXT%") ConvertToRGB24(matrix="Rec709") Save it as a template, if you like, then click Build scripts up top to finish the process. All your footage should now have an associated avs file that can be mounted as usual. Last edited by Robert Martens; January 5th, 2009 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Added AviSynth Batch Scripter information

December 18th, 2008, 02:57 AM	#33
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Sorry about posting the link, I saw it for $20 in a few places. Did not know they were illegal.

January 1st, 2009, 08:33 PM	#37
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Wow this is tough. I'm looking to get my hands on the 5D to work with the EX1. However the post job looks very intimidating at the moment!

January 4th, 2009, 08:55 PM	#39
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Anyone tried mxing mxf from the XDCAM with the mov from the 5D2? Is it workable or does the timeline mess up?

January 9th, 2009, 12:11 PM	#44
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Hi Keith, I just joined the club n I need your help to detail the workflow. I'm a little confused now but this is what I gathered. 1. Rewrap with avisynth? 2. Place it on the timeline as 720P project and render to ?? I like to mix the footage with the EX1's mxf. Any suggestion for me? Thks!