How about good quality Audio? at DVinfo.net

TingSern Wong · November 26th, 2008, 08:11 AM

I know the quality of a D-SLR movie function is pretty good. Especially with a high quality 35mm lens with a large aperature. But, image quality is only 40% of the overall impact to the audience. The other 60% is high quality audio - that calls for XLR connector class microphones. I doubt the D-SLR camera will be able to provide that for a long time to come.

Chris Hurd · November 26th, 2008, 08:48 AM

Actually you can have it right now, with the BeachTek DXA-4, DXA-6vu or DXA-6HD.

And that's just three options... there are a variety of ways to get XLR audio into a D-SLR.

Or go double-system like the filmmakers do, and record audio separately.

TingSern Wong · November 26th, 2008, 09:59 AM

Chris,

Having the connecting box is one story, but, can the D-SLR records 48khz at 16 bits PCM? I doubt they come with an AD with that quality.

(In fact, I just checked on the Nikon D90 - it only records mono).

So - if I need serious audio, I have to bring my Sound Devices 722 recorder along - that means, another problem - how to have accurate sync between the two?

Chris Hurd · November 26th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TingSern Wong

can the D-SLR records 48khz at 16 bits PCM?

The Canon 5D Mk.II does indeed record linear uncompressed PCM stereo audio.

Quote:

if I need serious audio, I have to bring my Sound Devices 722 recorder... how to have accurate sync between the two?

The most common way to sync double-system sound is to use a clapperboard.

Ryan Koo · November 26th, 2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The Canon 5D Mk.II does indeed record linear uncompressed PCM stereo audio.

Right, but it's 44kHz, not 48 (I *think*), and it's my assumption that there's no way to defeat the AGC. So even if you plugin the 5d-specific Beachtek DXA-5D, the camera will still be auto-adjusting levels. We need someone with a 5dMkII and a Beachtek to confirm this, though.

If 24p, manual shutter, and manual exposure are made possible on the 5dMkII, double-system sound will be a worthwhile compromise, given the price of other HD video cameras with full-frame sensors.

Bill Binder · November 26th, 2008, 11:56 AM

If you want pro audio to use with 5dmii footage, you've got one choice: double-system.

IMHO, the 44.1 vs. 48 thing is a non-issue, but the non-defeatable auto gain control (and complete lack of any manual gain control to my knowledge) and lack of any ability for monitoring are absolute deal killers on the audio front for anyone who is even remotely serious about their audio.

Nick Hiltgen · November 27th, 2008, 08:56 AM

Is it not a little hypocritical to demand quality sound but not want to spend money on getting a tascam p2? You don't even technically need to use a slate, you could record a wild track through the camera and your professional sound through the p2. I have an xl-h1 with professional xlr jacks and I still use the p2 when I want to get really good quality sound. I don't think anyone is proposing that this still camera is the end all be all of camera's (scarlett and epic won't either, well maybe epic) it's a new tool and a cheaper version of a 35mm adapter, thats all.

Dan Chung · November 27th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Sorry I've not had time to do proper audio tests yet but I will soon. I plan on using a combination of a variety of mics, a Sound Devices MixPre field mixer and my Edirol R-09 to give me the best of both worlds. I have a Beachtek too but it provides no monitoring so I'm not confident about using it.

Results soon.

Dan

Matthew Roddy · November 27th, 2008, 01:13 PM

Am I understanding correctly that there is no way to set audio levels within the 5DMII? It's always on Auto Levels?
So even sending it a clean signal from a Beachtek (they're coming out with one in December the metering and a monitor jack I hear) would still be subject to auto gain, right?

Min Lee · November 27th, 2008, 02:35 PM

In regards to monitoring audio, I've heard people used the composite out along with some adapters from radio shack to get a mini jack for their cheap canon camcorders. A quick search on google and I found this adapter which might work:

*OOPs. wrong cable. will post when I find another one*

*woot woot! Found this adapter. I've seen other ones before that were cables*
http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/sho...&preadd=action

Admittedly, it'd be a bit of a hassle having to use so many cables. It'd be great if someone can make adapter that goes from AV straight to headphone.

I will mostly likely hook up my AT1800 and monitor it using the headphone jack there. I know I'm not hearing exactly what the camera is getting but it'd probably be close enough.

Bill Binder · November 27th, 2008, 03:06 PM

Monitoring anything but what the camera is recording is not really monitoring.

Martin Catt · November 27th, 2008, 05:01 PM

Go double system. Use a good quality camera for the video and a good quality digital recorder for the sound. Invest a few bucks in a simple slate, or make one.

I've never had any synch problems with my MicroTrack, plus it's nice not having to tie the camera to the sound guy with a long cable. Hollywood got along just fine for decades using reel-to-reel Nagras with 1/4" tape. If you're really concerned about losing sync, do a tail slate at the end of the shot along with the slate at the beginning, and see how well it lines up with the video.

People act like it's such a hard thing to sync up a separate audio track with video. Slated properly, you have a wonderful single spike on the audio track waveform when the clapsticks close, which you line up with the video frame showing when the sticks close together. Takes maybe five seconds. Once aligned, group the audio clip with the video clip in the timeline, and they can be moved, edited, and shifted as a single item.

Martin

Daniel Browning · November 27th, 2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Catt

People act like it's such a hard thing to sync up a separate audio track with video. Slated properly, you have a wonderful single spike on the audio track waveform when the clapsticks close, which you line up with the video frame showing when the sticks close together. Takes maybe five seconds. Once aligned, group the audio clip with the video clip in the timeline, and they can be moved, edited, and shifted as a single item.

You don't even need clapsticks if the sound is run to the camera as well, like I do with my XH-A1. However, I find that even with a clapperboard it does take longer than 5 seconds due to file management, such as splitting up the audio file into small chunks that match the video clips (for fast audio editing).

While MOS works for some of my shoots, there are all sorts of genres that will not be helped by the double system sound workflow. Some event shoots will have over a thousand different clips in just 5 hours. That would take a long time to sync sound.

There should be some software to auto-detect the point where waveforms line up and sync sound automatically, especially one that worked despite auto-gain.

Min Lee · November 27th, 2008, 07:50 PM

Double system might not work for everyone, particularly video journalist that are doing a lot of run and gun. For film work or any controlled environment, i agree separate audio is the better way to go.

Chris Hurd · November 27th, 2008, 08:31 PM

A video journalist needs only to add a Sennheiser MKE400, per my photos at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photo-hd-...amera-box.html

Primary drawback isn't the lack of manual levels control so much as the inability to monitor audio while recording. The AV output jack could have easily been re-purposed for headphones (as it is on Canon camcorders) but that function has obviously been overlooked, unfortunately.

November 26th, 2008, 08:11 AM	#1
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	How about good quality Audio? I know the quality of a D-SLR movie function is pretty good. Especially with a high quality 35mm lens with a large aperature. But, image quality is only 40% of the overall impact to the audience. The other 60% is high quality audio - that calls for XLR connector class microphones. I doubt the D-SLR camera will be able to provide that for a long time to come.

November 26th, 2008, 08:48 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Actually you can have it right now, with the BeachTek DXA-4, DXA-6vu or DXA-6HD. And that's just three options... there are a variety of ways to get XLR audio into a D-SLR. Or go double-system like the filmmakers do, and record audio separately. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 27th, 2008, 08:56 AM	#7
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Is it not a little hypocritical to demand quality sound but not want to spend money on getting a tascam p2? You don't even technically need to use a slate, you could record a wild track through the camera and your professional sound through the p2. I have an xl-h1 with professional xlr jacks and I still use the p2 when I want to get really good quality sound. I don't think anyone is proposing that this still camera is the end all be all of camera's (scarlett and epic won't either, well maybe epic) it's a new tool and a cheaper version of a 35mm adapter, thats all. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

November 27th, 2008, 05:01 PM	#12
Martin Catt Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Colony TX Posts: 327	Go double system. Use a good quality camera for the video and a good quality digital recorder for the sound. Invest a few bucks in a simple slate, or make one. I've never had any synch problems with my MicroTrack, plus it's nice not having to tie the camera to the sound guy with a long cable. Hollywood got along just fine for decades using reel-to-reel Nagras with 1/4" tape. If you're really concerned about losing sync, do a tail slate at the end of the shot along with the slate at the beginning, and see how well it lines up with the video. People act like it's such a hard thing to sync up a separate audio track with video. Slated properly, you have a wonderful single spike on the audio track waveform when the clapsticks close, which you line up with the video frame showing when the sticks close together. Takes maybe five seconds. Once aligned, group the audio clip with the video clip in the timeline, and they can be moved, edited, and shifted as a single item. Martin __________________ Canon XF300, Canon 5DMkII, Canon XL2, Rolls MX422 mixer, Zoom H4N, AT899 lavs, AT2020's, Azden SGM 1X shotgun, Manfrotto 501 head on 351 tripod

November 27th, 2008, 08:31 PM	#15
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	A video journalist needs only to add a Sennheiser MKE400, per my photos at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photo-hd-...amera-box.html Primary drawback isn't the lack of manual levels control so much as the inability to monitor audio while recording. The AV output jack could have easily been re-purposed for headphones (as it is on Canon camcorders) but that function has obviously been overlooked, unfortunately. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 26th, 2008, 09:59 AM	#3
TingSern Wong Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE Posts: 749	Chris, Having the connecting box is one story, but, can the D-SLR records 48khz at 16 bits PCM? I doubt they come with an AD with that quality. (In fact, I just checked on the Nikon D90 - it only records mono). So - if I need serious audio, I have to bring my Sound Devices 722 recorder along - that means, another problem - how to have accurate sync between the two?

November 26th, 2008, 11:56 AM	#6
Bill Binder Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 542	If you want pro audio to use with 5dmii footage, you've got one choice: double-system. IMHO, the 44.1 vs. 48 thing is a non-issue, but the non-defeatable auto gain control (and complete lack of any manual gain control to my knowledge) and lack of any ability for monitoring are absolute deal killers on the audio front for anyone who is even remotely serious about their audio.

November 27th, 2008, 09:01 AM	#8
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Sorry I've not had time to do proper audio tests yet but I will soon. I plan on using a combination of a variety of mics, a Sound Devices MixPre field mixer and my Edirol R-09 to give me the best of both worlds. I have a Beachtek too but it provides no monitoring so I'm not confident about using it. Results soon. Dan

November 27th, 2008, 01:13 PM	#9
Matthew Roddy Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Riverside, Ca Posts: 307	Am I understanding correctly that there is no way to set audio levels within the 5DMII? It's always on Auto Levels? So even sending it a clean signal from a Beachtek (they're coming out with one in December the metering and a monitor jack I hear) would still be subject to auto gain, right?

November 27th, 2008, 02:35 PM	#10
Min Lee Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 200	In regards to monitoring audio, I've heard people used the composite out along with some adapters from radio shack to get a mini jack for their cheap canon camcorders. A quick search on google and I found this adapter which might work: OOPs. wrong cable. will post when I find another one woot woot! Found this adapter. I've seen other ones before that were cables http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/sho...&preadd=action Admittedly, it'd be a bit of a hassle having to use so many cables. It'd be great if someone can make adapter that goes from AV straight to headphone. I will mostly likely hook up my AT1800 and monitor it using the headphone jack there. I know I'm not hearing exactly what the camera is getting but it'd probably be close enough.

November 27th, 2008, 03:06 PM	#11
Bill Binder Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 542	Monitoring anything but what the camera is recording is not really monitoring.

November 27th, 2008, 07:50 PM	#14
Min Lee Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 200	Double system might not work for everyone, particularly video journalist that are doing a lot of run and gun. For film work or any controlled environment, i agree separate audio is the better way to go.