How about good quality Audio?

Don Miller · December 18th, 2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

................

Actually, I’ll be doing one-man interviews – lots of them in fact! Each interview will last at least an hour; I’m a little worried about the stopping the interview 5 or so times! But I’m pretty good with interviewees and my interview topic is quite light hearted so hopefully it won’t be troublesome, and you’re right the visual outcome will more than make up for it!

The add-on grip holds two batteries, which should easily get you through an hour with a 32gb card. If starting and stopping video with a remote works. the interviewee doesn't even need to be aware of the interruption. The video turns on and off quickly.

A manual or disconnected EF lens seems necessary to ensure the camera doesn't do anything crazy with aperture.

Salvador Garza · December 18th, 2008, 11:59 AM

Hi Mike!

NTSC is 29.97 and can have either NDF or DF Timecode associated to it. The camera actually records 30fps. In order to conform it to NTSC standards you have to play the video back 0.1% slower (30fps->29.97fps). To keep audio sync you'd also have to slow your audio by the same amount. However when slowing or speeding audio your pitch changes as well. I haven't played with this much, but I guess that with today's DAWs a 0.1% speed change produces a negligible pitch change. This is also necessary when converting 24p (real 24p no t 23.976p) to 29.97.

Bernard Racelis · December 18th, 2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

This is confusing Salvador, and if my limited knowledge of video time code is correct the difference between 30fps and 29.97fps is in how the frames are counted and not actual frames

3000(or any amount of) frames in both 30fps and 29.97fps will last the same amount of time – is it only the time code that is calculated differently.

....

Drop Frame vs Non Drop Frame for details or to confuse yourself more.

If i was wrong, someone PLEASE correct me:)

After reading that link, I think your example is incorrect.

If you have 2 videos, one shot at 30fps, another at 29.97fps
the number of frames between the 2 will not be the same for 30 minutes worth of video.
But they're both 30 minutes long -- the last frame on the 30fps video will represent the same 'moment' as the last frame in the 29.97fps video.

And this would be the same for audio (whether it's recorder in-camera or in a separate recorder).

You can also re-render a 30fps video to 29.97 without slowing it down (and it would still be 30 minutes and it would match the audio), but that could introduce ghosting/frame-regeneration/etc.

It's better to slow down the 30fps video to 29.97, but it won't be 30 minutes anymore (as Salvador mentioned).

Correct me if I'm wrong, too !

Jon Fairhurst · December 18th, 2008, 09:16 PM

It's best to slow down the 30p video to 29.97, dropping one frame in 1,000. This solution keeps your video at the correct duration, and is still at real time, more or less. No need to stretch your audio either.

Mike Calla · December 19th, 2008, 12:39 AM

Post removed! Sorry:)

When i read or hear 30fps i automatically think 29.97 non-drop frame... but the 5d is in fact true 30fps --- VERY VERY SORRY! All this time i thought it was just NTSC non drop frame.

Sorry - Sorry - Sorry

Bernard Racelis · December 19th, 2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

It's best to slow down the 30p video to 29.97, dropping one frame in 1,000. This solution keeps your video at the correct duration, and is still at real time, more or less. No need to stretch your audio either.

What tool/workflow do you use/recommend ?
I'm using Windows.

Also, even without slowing down the video, I find that I still need to stretch/shorten the separate audio track (5 minutes long) to synch with the video (I'm using Vegas and Sound Forge to stretch/shorten the audio track). That was with an MP3 file though. Need to test this with WAV files.

Jon Fairhurst · December 19th, 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Racelis

What tool/workflow do you use/recommend ?
I'm using Windows.

After Effects is excellent at handling multiple frame rates and providing good control over the result. It lets you specify everything, including selection of speed change vs. frame drop/double vs. frame blend vs. motion interpolation.

One caveat: motion interpolation is slow and flawed. There are plugins available, but I have yet to see anything I like for non-computer generated material.

For the 5D, going from 30p to 29.97, either slow down the video/audio or drop every 1000th frame. And for 30p to 24p, I'd generally drop every 5th frame.

On slow shutter material, like a smoothed out waterfall shot from a tripod, go with frame blending.

Guy Cochran · December 19th, 2008, 05:14 PM

If you jump over to the BeachTek site, it looks like they're going to be offering an XLR adapter with phantom power and headphone monitoring specifically for the Canon EOS 5D Mark II. BeachTek website

Matthew Roddy · December 19th, 2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Cochran

If you jump over to the BeachTek site, it looks like they're going to be offering an XLR adapter with phantom power and headphone monitoring specifically for the Canon EOS 5D Mark II. BeachTek website

I've been searching and can't really find a good answer to this, but, what's the point of bringing your pro audio into this camera as long as it has auto-gain so integrated?

I've heard/seen a few examples on Vimeo where they use a nice shotgun plugged straight in to the 5dM2 and it sounds good until there's quiet. Then you can really clearly hear the audio levels creep up during those quiet times.
And worse, the levels drop for a loud noise and take a while to recover - just like any auto-level camera/setup.

I don't specifically remember the video, but they were showing a guy who was talking; he tapped something, producing a light mettle CLANG and the levels dropped to compensate, taking his voice with it.

Even taking audio in via pro mics into the 5DM2 via XLRs into a Beachtek wouldn't fix the auto levels, right?

Near as I can tell, the only thing the camera's audio is good for is reference.

I must be missing something obvious.

Mike Calla · December 19th, 2008, 10:28 PM

Agreed, auto gain in audio is just bad! When audio is even slightly important to your shot/production you need a separate audio recorder!

maybe some one can make an audio recorder (or any device) that has a universal record button. you press "record" and all your devices start recording at same time. Although i guess each device will have different stop to record times, it would still make things a lot easier!

Mike Calla · December 19th, 2008, 10:55 PM

First, to Salvador, Jon, Bernard and anyone else, my apologies for being confused and formerly posting wrong info regarding time code and the 5D. I’m reading too many threads on too many forums!

As for converting 30p to 29.97 do you complete your edit at 30fps first then do your conversion OR do you covert your clips to 29.97 and then edit?

BTW having my eyes opened to the fact that 5D is in fact true 30fps and not 29.97 non-drop, is to me more of a pain in the ass than all the other problems I’ve been reading about and trying to find workflow workarounds for! Sooner or later the ratio of pain-in-ass:beautiful images is going to be too high to ignore :(

Jon Fairhurst · December 20th, 2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

As for converting 30p to 29.97 do you complete your edit at 30fps first then do your conversion OR do you covert your clips to 29.97 and then edit?

It's probably easiest to do at the end, but if you're going to intermix 29.97 content, then definitely convert up front. Then again, if you have 10,000 30p clips and one 29.97 clip, convert the odd clip to 30p, edit, and then go to 29.97.

It definitely and certainly all depends. :)

Jeff Rotz · January 19th, 2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Roddy

I've been searching and can't really find a good answer to this, but, what's the point of bringing your pro audio into this camera as long as it has auto-gain so integrated?

I've heard/seen a few examples on Vimeo where they use a nice shotgun plugged straight in to the 5dM2 and it sounds good until there's quiet. Then you can really clearly hear the audio levels creep up during those quiet times.
And worse, the levels drop for a loud noise and take a while to recover - just like any auto-level camera/setup.

I don't specifically remember the video, but they were showing a guy who was talking; he tapped something, producing a light mettle CLANG and the levels dropped to compensate, taking his voice with it.

Even taking audio in via pro mics into the 5DM2 via XLRs into a Beachtek wouldn't fix the auto levels, right?

Near as I can tell, the only thing the camera's audio is good for is reference.

I must be missing something obvious.

I agree with you, and today I discovered a clever solution for synchronizing an external audio recorder to the 5D Mark II, using the 5D Mark II's audio track as a time code reference track.

Microphone for 5D mkII - FM Forums

A little lower in the thread he has posted a diagram of his solution. He proposes using a Zoom H4 with a SMPTE LTC time code track already recorded on its memory card. Because the H4 can playback at the same time as it records, he suggests sending the LTC via a wireless link to the 5D Mark II. Then the video and audio will have the same LTC tracks attached and can be easily synchronized in an editor. Credit to "jray" there for this idea.

Has anyone tried this? Or what about attaching a portable time code generator with LTC output to the audio input of the 5D Mark II and jamming it to the time code generator in an external audio recorder? Frame accuracy isn't essential, just good lip synchronization. The less manual work needed to synchronize the video and the audio recordings, the better it is for all of us who record sound too.

Henry Coll · January 22nd, 2009, 08:00 PM

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but i'd simply get a fostex FR2-LE.

There's no way to get decent audio into the 5D2. Period. The only way to go is with an external recorder, and sync later in post (use a slate), it takes seconds. That on the other hand brings new possibilities, as the mics can be put anywhere, like far away from the camera and close to the source, if you're shooting with a tele lens, and you won't need radio transmiters for the mics.

Unfortunately, all the cheap audio recorders are full of compromises, either dont have 48v, or don't allow proper confident monitoring and have weak and hissy phone outs, or their preamps are very poor, or the AD is subpaar, etc, etc. Think that of mic as the lens, and the preamp+A/D as the CCD. Quality costs.

I mean, you spend many thousands in the camera, lenses, a video editing software etc, and then pretend to skip on the the audio, which is 50% of videography? Cheap solutions will be like using the kit lens from an entry level DSLR, you wouldn't do that.

This is not photography. Consider that audio gives continuity to images. Keep a good audio source and you can mix all kinds of video footage, regardless of picture quality, colour correction etc. The audio keeps it consistent. Now do the opposite, get perfectly edited and colour corrected footage and pair it with poor audio: it falls apart.

There's no other way to it (if you care about it) than to get a pro recorder, which are all quite expensive, starting from $1,000 up to $6,000. Under the $1,000 mark, the best deal (i've done comaparisons) is with the LE version of the Fostex FR-2, which can be found for $500 or less. It doens't have many features, but what it has, it's up to professional specs, and it's an unit you can use for any kind of proaudio work, even including classical music (for which I'd use at least hi-end external pres though, but im an audio engineer in another life).

Anyway, chek it out. It's not the cheapest option, but one to consider.

William Chung · January 26th, 2009, 10:33 AM

how about acceptable audio?

are those shotgun mics that can mount on the flash shoe on the camera good enough for something like an interview during an event? will it still catch the annoying IS motor sound?

December 18th, 2008, 09:16 PM	#49
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	It's best to slow down the 30p video to 29.97, dropping one frame in 1,000. This solution keeps your video at the correct duration, and is still at real time, more or less. No need to stretch your audio either. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

December 19th, 2008, 12:39 AM	#50
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	Post removed! Sorry:) When i read or hear 30fps i automatically think 29.97 non-drop frame... but the 5d is in fact true 30fps --- VERY VERY SORRY! All this time i thought it was just NTSC non drop frame. Sorry - Sorry - Sorry Attached Thumbnails __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com Last edited by Mike Calla; December 19th, 2008 at 01:19 AM. Reason: general idiocy:)

December 19th, 2008, 05:14 PM	#53
Guy Cochran DVCreators.Net Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 892	If you jump over to the BeachTek site, it looks like they're going to be offering an XLR adapter with phantom power and headphone monitoring specifically for the Canon EOS 5D Mark II. BeachTek website Attached Thumbnails __________________ Guy Cochran DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!

December 19th, 2008, 10:28 PM	#55
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	Agreed, auto gain in audio is just bad! When audio is even slightly important to your shot/production you need a separate audio recorder! maybe some one can make an audio recorder (or any device) that has a universal record button. you press "record" and all your devices start recording at same time. Although i guess each device will have different stop to record times, it would still make things a lot easier! __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

December 19th, 2008, 10:55 PM	#56
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	First, to Salvador, Jon, Bernard and anyone else, my apologies for being confused and formerly posting wrong info regarding time code and the 5D. I’m reading too many threads on too many forums! As for converting 30p to 29.97 do you complete your edit at 30fps first then do your conversion OR do you covert your clips to 29.97 and then edit? BTW having my eyes opened to the fact that 5D is in fact true 30fps and not 29.97 non-drop, is to me more of a pain in the ass than all the other problems I’ve been reading about and trying to find workflow workarounds for! Sooner or later the ratio of pain-in-ass:beautiful images is going to be too high to ignore :( __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

December 18th, 2008, 11:59 AM	#47
Salvador Garza New Boot Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Chihuahua, Mexico Posts: 13	Hi Mike! NTSC is 29.97 and can have either NDF or DF Timecode associated to it. The camera actually records 30fps. In order to conform it to NTSC standards you have to play the video back 0.1% slower (30fps->29.97fps). To keep audio sync you'd also have to slow your audio by the same amount. However when slowing or speeding audio your pitch changes as well. I haven't played with this much, but I guess that with today's DAWs a 0.1% speed change produces a negligible pitch change. This is also necessary when converting 24p (real 24p no t 23.976p) to 29.97.

January 22nd, 2009, 08:00 PM	#59
Henry Coll Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: germany, spain Posts: 66	get a fostex fr2-le I dont know if this has been mentioned, but i'd simply get a fostex FR2-LE. There's no way to get decent audio into the 5D2. Period. The only way to go is with an external recorder, and sync later in post (use a slate), it takes seconds. That on the other hand brings new possibilities, as the mics can be put anywhere, like far away from the camera and close to the source, if you're shooting with a tele lens, and you won't need radio transmiters for the mics. Unfortunately, all the cheap audio recorders are full of compromises, either dont have 48v, or don't allow proper confident monitoring and have weak and hissy phone outs, or their preamps are very poor, or the AD is subpaar, etc, etc. Think that of mic as the lens, and the preamp+A/D as the CCD. Quality costs. I mean, you spend many thousands in the camera, lenses, a video editing software etc, and then pretend to skip on the the audio, which is 50% of videography? Cheap solutions will be like using the kit lens from an entry level DSLR, you wouldn't do that. This is not photography. Consider that audio gives continuity to images. Keep a good audio source and you can mix all kinds of video footage, regardless of picture quality, colour correction etc. The audio keeps it consistent. Now do the opposite, get perfectly edited and colour corrected footage and pair it with poor audio: it falls apart. There's no other way to it (if you care about it) than to get a pro recorder, which are all quite expensive, starting from $1,000 up to $6,000. Under the $1,000 mark, the best deal (i've done comaparisons) is with the LE version of the Fostex FR-2, which can be found for $500 or less. It doens't have many features, but what it has, it's up to professional specs, and it's an unit you can use for any kind of proaudio work, even including classical music (for which I'd use at least hi-end external pres though, but im an audio engineer in another life). Anyway, chek it out. It's not the cheapest option, but one to consider. Last edited by Henry Coll; January 23rd, 2009 at 06:13 AM.

January 26th, 2009, 10:33 AM	#60
William Chung Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Duluth, GA Posts: 80	how about acceptable audio? are those shotgun mics that can mount on the flash shoe on the camera good enough for something like an interview during an event? will it still catch the annoying IS motor sound?