Scarlet = 5DII still on order

[Chris Barcellos]

Dylan, a bit snippy, don't you think. There are a lot of non-professionals on this forum that make films because they love to do it, and you shouldn't blame us for dreaming about a set up that gives then what we dream about... And the camera makers know that.

That aside, the whole Scarlet/Epic idea is revolutionary, and brilliant, but probably, realistically beyond means of the non-professional. But you shouldn't be too critical of us, because I think it is the non profit indie that drives a lot of the change in this market and actually drives the prices down for you pros.... so lighten up on us a bit.

[Daniel Lipats]

The fixed lens scarlet has no price tag yet, and the $2,500 2/3" brain is going to cost a lot more once you buy the lens, viewfinder, memory, and other accessories to make it functional.

I like the 3k feature but for me its far from priority. In fact, the majority of my clients request a DVD since bluray is not yet mainstream. I shoot at 1920x1080 and downres to 720x480. With Scarlet I would be shooting at 3k only to downres to 720x480. It does not make much sense to me at this point.

Of course if I had the option to shoot at 3K I still would, its just not vital.

I have worked with 2/3" chip cameras a lot and its not just a touch less DoF. It's considerably less.

To say the least RED's announcements are impressive. Scarlet is great and if I could buy one right now I would without hesitation. I have my eyes set on the Scarlet S35 brain, but its not yet available and wont be for a while.

The best sub $10,000 35mm sensor I am aware of just around the corner is the 5D2. It may not be perfect but I am optimistic that a work around will be found for exposure controls.

Your expectations of the perfect camera may be very different from mine or someone else.

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Dylan, a bit snippy, don't you think. There are a lot of non-professionals on this forum that make films because they love to do it, and you shouldn't blame us for dreaming about a set up that gives then what we dream about... And the camera makers know that.

That aside, the whole Scarlet/Epic idea is revolutionary, and brilliant, but probably, realistically beyond means of the non-professional. But you shouldn't be too critical of us, because I think it is the non profit indie that drives a lot of the change in this market and actually drives the prices down for you pros.... so lighten up on us a bit.

I don't own a Red camera, nor am I a Red fanatic. Quite the opposite, I'm born and bred Canon.
However, to write off a camera because it doesn't offer 35mm DOF is outright ridiculous... especially when it offers bucketloads more than every other camera under 5x it's price. It's like getting offered a Ferrari for the price of a Mustang and then rejecting it because it only comes in Red, and then complaining about it being useless on the internet.

Most of us have been paying $6-$8,000 per camera for 1/3" chip cameras over the years: VX1000's, XL1's, DVX100's, HVX200, HD100's... 2/3" chip cameras were always in the $20,000+ range, and now I can buy one for $2500-$4000 that uses my EF lenses? And gives me a good HD codec? AND 120fps overcrank?

No camera is useless... just the person holding it.

[Konrad Haskins]

I'd love to know where you are getting scarlet pricing? All I've seen is pricing on a "brain" you need to add a whole bunch of stuff for the brain to become a working camera and those prices are TBD.

[Don Miller]

The comparison to existing 3 CCD 2/3" with the single 2/3 cmos isn't necessarily valid. The current 3 ccd models don't need to use bayer. They also have 3x the sensor surface area.

I believe the current Canon single cmos $700 camcorders have 1/2" cmos. These models are not superior to Canon's more expensive 3 ccd 1/3" camcorders. (They are amazingly good for the price in good light, however)

I do think, however, that a 2/3" scarlet model is useful in the Red lineup. Both for price and for long-lens shooting that will match well with bigger Red.

[Paul Cronin]

Currently shooting with the EX1 and a XDR Flash on order, which will bring my high motion footage to the next level 4.2.2 100Mbps.

As for the Scarlet 2/3" with my choice of lens and RAW wow that is a winner all the way around. I see what my pro buddy does with his top of the line Canon stills and RAW and I am jealous. Raw rules and is the way of the future. Nothing burned into the footage gives some amazing creativity and cropping on top of that!

Now SDI out of the Scarlet what will that be? Could the XDR Flash work or am I missing something here?

[Tim Polster]

Me personally, I would prefer higher useable ISO to a RAW codec any day.

RAW gives you about a stop and a half to push still images in post before they really start showing signs of wearing out.

High ISO & RAW would be grand, but as video goes, a slow camera is about the worst in every situation outside of a controlled studio shoot.

But I think it is easy to mix uses for the Scarlet and the 5DMII.

These two cameras seem to be more cine production vehicles than normal video production vehicles.

What the cine folks want is not neccessarily what the video folks want...

[Adam Letch]

As we know, this is quite a fluid company, Even though looking at these models (are they working I haven't looked into it yet?), that given their past a lot of R&D will still pass under the bridge before it's a reality.
As far as cost, I own a HD251 with only stock lens, DRDH100, NTG2, chrosziel mb, and global media pro batts, in this config that's about $22000 Aust, currently about $14,000US.
Is it a great 1/3 camera - yes definitely. But the usual problems that plague the 1/3chip and the hdv sector. Noise and low light performance.
Would I like the new 50Mbps 4:2:2 HDXDCam, of course, but the body by it'self is $40,000Aust, a good lens $15,000Aust and up, and thats without matteboxes, and mics etc etc. I'm not sure as I don't have the stats in front of me, but this is 'only' 720p (as in I shoot 720p and it's great) and 1080p at 24/5p.
And here we have red giving us the opportunity to decide what size chip we want at what price point we decide we can afford to make a camera that is suitable for our needs.
Instead of being lumbered with a stock fixed lens (which there will be one model of this nature I understand) that may be good, but doesn't really cover the range you need it to work, with Red you end up spending $$ on what you actually want. Shallow dof is nice, but in a lot of applications isn't pertinent. Anyone who's been in the game long enough knows that stockers are either not wide enough or not long enough, and yes we then learn to work around these limitations, using WA adapters etc.
The reality is we've chosen a field that is big $$. Yes we can get more now than we ever did for our dollar, we all have in our own minds what is the perfect camera, I guess what we need to do now is translate that into constructive suggestions. The Scarlet was originally only looked at as a good POV camera I think by serious videographers, but now with the modular system can be anything you want it to be, at a price albeit.
Interesting times, I hope that they do have 'package' deals to help us all reach the functionality we require without remortgaging the house!

Adam

[M. Paul El-Darwish]

Just thought I'd insert some 'outsider' perspective for what it's worth. Part my day job is analyzing technology trends, innovation and enabling paradigms.
The RED/Scarlet phenomenon fits into a pattern that's familiar to me. The operative notion is:
- Create a technological breakthrough
- Seed the early adopter community with it
- Ingest and process feedback
- Develop an evolved iteration
- Refine and tune future iterations
It's known as the Waterfall Method to you IT junkies.
Manufacturers do practice this when they are in the early stages of their corporate brand definition, but they tend to drag their feet on item #1 Create a technological breakthrough. That's what opens doors for products like Red....Scarlet....
To those that are balking at the lack of fine tuning of this strategy, it's too early to complain really. Give them another year or two.
What's important is the MESSAGE it send to the Old Guard Vid-cam makers. RED is to the mainstream Prosumer/Indy community, what Apple IS & WAS to the Wintel empire.
I just hope that Red are properly patenting what is indeed their IP so as to ensure that they get all due credit where deserved.
For those that want affordable DOF in HD etc. The Still cam 5DII is the 'Gimme' option that you can jump into now.
I luxuriate in the privilege of being a midstream adopter- shunning early adoption and rarely arriving at the party too late to dine :)

[Don Miller]

Originally Posted by M. Paul El-Darwish

.................. RED is to the mainstream Prosumer/Indy community, what Apple IS & WAS to the Wintel empire.
.......

Except that apple and microsoft started at about the same time, and Microsoft won. So how is that a valid analogy?

If you want to understand Red look at the pros and cons of being the first mover. Also determine to what extent Red invents technology they can protect and to what degree they are applying existing technology. What proprietary technology does Red have that hinders competitors? What advantages do competitors have? Digital imaging is extremely directly comparable between brands. This makes perception of Brands very volatile.


Don
a mac user

[Paul Cronin]

And Paul I disagree the 5DII is not the way to go yet. That maybe one or two years away also unless you can live with skew.

[Don Miller]

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

And Paul I disagree the 5DII is not the way to go yet. That maybe one or two years away also.

Did he say that? I wasn't sure.

Even if the fill Scarlet line was available, the products don't really sit in the same product niche as the 5DII. After Canon comes out with more products we'll see how they compare for specific work.

That said, I don't think that most people understand that the 5DII is a 5.5K sensor (in Red speak) being down sampled to 1080P (about 2K). The sensor isn't cropped except a bit off the top and bottom to make the wider aspect ratio. This down sampling from almost 18mp to about 2mp can make a very high quality video.

The small 2/3" proposed red sensor is something like 4 or 5mp down sampled to 3mp. All things being equal, in good light, the Canon image would be significantly better. But things aren't equal. The 2/3" scarlet will have tiny photo sites and Red has not demonstrated any decent low light capability. In fact the Red One does not meet the standard ASA 500 tungsten setting for studio lighting. They are about one stop short.

In the outside world Red One is nowhere close to being able to shoot a demo like the LaForet short Reverie.

This competition isn't about which cookie company has the best P.R. campaign. This is a competition for multi-billion dollars of high tech business where billions of dollars of R&D has been invested. What I see in Red's announcement is a refocus to become a specialty company. (I consider indie film making equipment a specialty). I just don't see products that are designed for broad use outside of planned, deliberate film/video making.

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

And Paul I disagree the 5DII is not the way to go yet. That maybe one or two years away also.

I think he was saying the opposite, that the 5DmkII is the way to go for now.

Most of us are kind of isolated in this little indiefilm niche. What will really be interesting is to see what impact Red makes on the broadcast market, which is the real show.

[Paul Cronin]

If I used the 5DII on a job with action I would loose my clients with how bad I see the skew. I still feel the EX1/3 out preform the 5DII and with the XDR Flash the EX series is way ahead. That does not mean Canon will not get it right next time or even the time after.

[Daniel Lipats]

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin

If I used the 5DII on a job with action I would loose my clients with how bad I see the skew. I still feel the EX1/3 out preform the 5DII and with the XDR Flash the EX series is way ahead. That does not mean Canon will not get it right next time or even the time after.

What exactly are you using to measure the 5D2 rolling shutter?

Based on the videos we have seen so far, including the camera mounted on the bike, the rolling shutter on the 5D2 is not prominent. It does not look much worse than the EX1. Its there to some extent but seems very manageable.