Full HD on Canon EOS 5D Mk. II -- officially announced

Chris Hurd · September 21st, 2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

...5 million Blu-ray players? 30p isn't going to cut it. It isn't supported.

I see that as a Blu-ray problem... which in my opinion the Blu-ray consortium really needs to fix.

Douglas Joseph · September 21st, 2008, 10:20 PM

Cell phone cameras? What the junk? Dude, all I am saying is, to be able to have this as an "add-on" to what they're already doing is gonna be awesome for them and any photographer. To be able to throw video at client, along with sweet photos is not fair. Haha. (if there are two shooters, obviously). Not to mention, it also ties in with the promo work they do for their and site and blog, thus meaning they don't have to invest in a camcorder, but instead they can us an SLR which they're already familiar with. If you can't get it, that's beyond me. There is just... unlimited possibilities with this cam for anyone who works in photography, plain and simply. Yes, 30f is a drawback. But it's a minor drawback. An average client isn't gonna notice the difference between 24p and 30. I can kind of see why see Canon chose 30f as the fate rate. I could elaborate on this more, but you get the picture.

Henry Coll · September 22nd, 2008, 12:45 AM

i need a new DSLR and am considering the canon 5dmk2 over the nikon d700 because of its video capabilities, despite the fact that the 5d has an inferior AF.

now, the 5d shoots at 30p. that's useless except for computers and was probably done on purpose to protect canons videocams. is there a way to convert 30p to 25p (pal) and dont get gargabe out of it?

Shake perphaps?

Dan Chung · September 22nd, 2008, 04:47 AM

Simon,

If you are still following this thread I'd like to try and explain the logic of these developments from Canon and Nikon to you. I'd also like to say how much I've appreciated your knowledge of XDCAM over the past couple of years.

Cameras like the 5DmkII and to a lesser extent the D90 are aimed at people like me, I know this because I've spent time talking, drinking and dining with to the people who actually make these cameras, most recently at the Beijing Olympics.

I like many other photojournalists are now being expected to shoot still and video, not just low quality crap, but broadcast quality. Whilst I agree this is practically impossible to shoot stills and video in some fast situations, there are many others when it makes sense, especially if you are the only person at the right place at the right time. My fellow Guardian photojournalist Sean Smith's recent RTS award for work in Iraq is proof of logic behind this. For international news agencies like Associated Press, Reuters, AFP and Gettyimages it all makes sense too. Associated Press for instance just started kitting photographers out with Sony EX-1 cameras, now they might not need to. You may not like multiskilling, but if you are asked to do it I believe in doing it to the best of your ability, that and I actually like making video (though I prefer stills)

Currently in addition to my Nikon cameras I have to choose which video camera to carry. I own a DSR-500 with 2 lenses, 2 Sony EX-1's with a Brevis, in addition to Canon HV20 and 30. Hopefully in the future I might only need to carry the D-SLR bodies. Trust me I understand that ergonomics of D-SLR's don't really work well for video yet (my fortnight with the D90 has taught me that), but I think it's solvable with a little ingenuity. My Redrock micro shoulder mount can be used with a HDMI monitor I think.

Where I think Canon may have slipped up wih 30p this time is not understanding that photojournalists will want to have the option of suppling not just web but also PAL and NTSC broadcast. Whether this be a cat up a tree for the local cable channel or a dramatic war video you need the option to deliver to broadcasters. In my bureau I sometimes work with C4 and ITV news, 30p just doesn't work for me.

It seems 30p is just too much hassle unless someone can find a simple solution. Hopefully the next generation of pro D-SLR's will rectify this as well as include proper audio controls , even lower base sensitivities (to make up for lack of built in ND), zebras and peaking, and tilting LCD screens/proper viewfinder options.

Dan

Dan Chung · September 22nd, 2008, 06:09 AM

For frame rate conversion do we think this will work? EDIROL VC-300HD Multi-format Converter :: Specifications

Dan

Peter Moretti · September 22nd, 2008, 06:26 AM

Dan,

I'd checkout TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0. I can convert pretty much anything into anything. It's a $100 piece of software.

Henry Coll · September 22nd, 2008, 06:52 AM

peter, how good is this piece of software, can it bring HD footage from 30fps to 25fps (PAL, either progressive or interlaced) with acceptable results? it looks too cheap to me, more than for the amateur (but what do i know).

Havent used Shake, but i guess converting a finished short clip (say 10 minutes) in "optical flow" might take A LOT of time and a fully charged monster octo powermac.

Ger Griffin · September 22nd, 2008, 09:19 AM

Hold on a second here, Im just after realising something.
Are we here in pal land not due a pal version of this camera?

That would be a first.

I cant imagine canon excluding half (very approx) the world simply because of frame rates.

I personally wouldn't bother with this camera if every clip needed to be converted.

Chris P. Jones · September 22nd, 2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Szilveszter

Simply put get the right tool for the job.

I agree - but will photographers be able to put together a "good enough" product to cut us out of the loop?

The author states: "Max - I don’t plan on shooting a single assignment solely with stills ever again… shooting video with is camera over the weekend ranks up there as one of the most fun things I’ve ever done in my career… I can’t wait to get my hands on this camera again…"

While I am glad that photographers are realizing how fun and cool it is to become a filmmaker, I don't want them to realize it too much!!!

jones

Josh Chesarek · September 22nd, 2008, 10:38 AM

Interesting stuff to say the least.

I would love to see the video. I emailed offering hosting for the video. I have seen the others and think its pretty amazing stuff but I won't be selling my XL-H1a anytime soon :)

Dan Chung · September 22nd, 2008, 10:58 AM

There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally.

Dan

Joe Russ · September 22nd, 2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I see that as a Blu-ray problem... which in my opinion the Blu-ray consortium really needs to fix.

30p works just fine in a 60i container.....its just duplicated fields......so, stuff shot on 30p can easily be put on blu-ray...and it should look identical to the 30p....

Ger Griffin · September 22nd, 2008, 11:33 AM

"There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally" - Dan

They need to see to that.

Just out of curiosity, which would make a better transfer to 25p,- 24p or 30p?

Don Miller · September 22nd, 2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris P. Jones

...will photographers be able to put together a "good enough" product to cut us out of the loop?

I thinks it's more the opposite. Frame grabs produce very usable images. The photo editor just runs through the video and picks out the peak moment. Probably need a new name for the guy sent out to bring back images.

Don Miller · September 22nd, 2008, 12:27 PM

I expect the next one series to include a larger video feature set. It's very Canon-like for their first model of something new to have a modest feature set but have very high IQ. The first all Canon DSLR was the D30. It produced great 3mp cmos images, but otherwise the camera was pretty low end.

It seems we will also see a single cmos camcorder as an XL replacement. That will probably have all the expected video functionality plus improved ability to shoot stills.
It all about market segmentation. We'll need to see how Canon makes products for different end users with this newer tech. Canon absolutely has target markets for the 5D. Just read the literature. It's not at all surprising that they would not consider broadcast video in a $2600 DSLR.

If you're an XL user and but don't see what you do in the 5DII, you can be sure you will see a better fit in future products.

There's an odd split in the initial opinion on the 5DII. Cinematographers and photographers mostly say "cool!". Videographers see the 1000 missing pieces they would need to make the 5DII work for them. I don't see people setting down their XL H1 for a 5DII. For them it's more of a demo of the core imaging ability in future products.

September 21st, 2008, 10:20 PM	#122
Douglas Joseph Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Zanesville OH Posts: 205	Cell phone cameras? What the junk? Dude, all I am saying is, to be able to have this as an "add-on" to what they're already doing is gonna be awesome for them and any photographer. To be able to throw video at client, along with sweet photos is not fair. Haha. (if there are two shooters, obviously). Not to mention, it also ties in with the promo work they do for their and site and blog, thus meaning they don't have to invest in a camcorder, but instead they can us an SLR which they're already familiar with. If you can't get it, that's beyond me. There is just... unlimited possibilities with this cam for anyone who works in photography, plain and simply. Yes, 30f is a drawback. But it's a minor drawback. An average client isn't gonna notice the difference between 24p and 30. I can kind of see why see Canon chose 30f as the fate rate. I could elaborate on this more, but you get the picture. __________________ "Warriors... Come out to play..." www.importexporthd.com

September 22nd, 2008, 12:45 AM	#123
Henry Coll Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: germany, spain Posts: 66	30p to 25p?? i need a new DSLR and am considering the canon 5dmk2 over the nikon d700 because of its video capabilities, despite the fact that the 5d has an inferior AF. now, the 5d shoots at 30p. that's useless except for computers and was probably done on purpose to protect canons videocams. is there a way to convert 30p to 25p (pal) and dont get gargabe out of it? Shake perphaps?

September 22nd, 2008, 10:38 AM	#130
Josh Chesarek Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 978	Interesting stuff to say the least. I would love to see the video. I emailed offering hosting for the video. I have seen the others and think its pretty amazing stuff but I won't be selling my XL-H1a anytime soon :) __________________ Simple Thought Productions - Life @ 30,000 Words per second

September 22nd, 2008, 04:47 AM	#124
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	Simon, If you are still following this thread I'd like to try and explain the logic of these developments from Canon and Nikon to you. I'd also like to say how much I've appreciated your knowledge of XDCAM over the past couple of years. Cameras like the 5DmkII and to a lesser extent the D90 are aimed at people like me, I know this because I've spent time talking, drinking and dining with to the people who actually make these cameras, most recently at the Beijing Olympics. I like many other photojournalists are now being expected to shoot still and video, not just low quality crap, but broadcast quality. Whilst I agree this is practically impossible to shoot stills and video in some fast situations, there are many others when it makes sense, especially if you are the only person at the right place at the right time. My fellow Guardian photojournalist Sean Smith's recent RTS award for work in Iraq is proof of logic behind this. For international news agencies like Associated Press, Reuters, AFP and Gettyimages it all makes sense too. Associated Press for instance just started kitting photographers out with Sony EX-1 cameras, now they might not need to. You may not like multiskilling, but if you are asked to do it I believe in doing it to the best of your ability, that and I actually like making video (though I prefer stills) Currently in addition to my Nikon cameras I have to choose which video camera to carry. I own a DSR-500 with 2 lenses, 2 Sony EX-1's with a Brevis, in addition to Canon HV20 and 30. Hopefully in the future I might only need to carry the D-SLR bodies. Trust me I understand that ergonomics of D-SLR's don't really work well for video yet (my fortnight with the D90 has taught me that), but I think it's solvable with a little ingenuity. My Redrock micro shoulder mount can be used with a HDMI monitor I think. Where I think Canon may have slipped up wih 30p this time is not understanding that photojournalists will want to have the option of suppling not just web but also PAL and NTSC broadcast. Whether this be a cat up a tree for the local cable channel or a dramatic war video you need the option to deliver to broadcasters. In my bureau I sometimes work with C4 and ITV news, 30p just doesn't work for me. It seems 30p is just too much hassle unless someone can find a simple solution. Hopefully the next generation of pro D-SLR's will rectify this as well as include proper audio controls , even lower base sensitivities (to make up for lack of built in ND), zebras and peaking, and tilting LCD screens/proper viewfinder options. Dan

September 22nd, 2008, 06:09 AM	#125
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	For frame rate conversion do we think this will work? EDIROL VC-300HD Multi-format Converter :: Specifications Dan

September 22nd, 2008, 06:26 AM	#126
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Dan, I'd checkout TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0. I can convert pretty much anything into anything. It's a $100 piece of software.

September 22nd, 2008, 06:52 AM	#127
Henry Coll Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: germany, spain Posts: 66	peter, how good is this piece of software, can it bring HD footage from 30fps to 25fps (PAL, either progressive or interlaced) with acceptable results? it looks too cheap to me, more than for the amateur (but what do i know). Havent used Shake, but i guess converting a finished short clip (say 10 minutes) in "optical flow" might take A LOT of time and a fully charged monster octo powermac.

September 22nd, 2008, 09:19 AM	#128
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	Hold on a second here, Im just after realising something. Are we here in pal land not due a pal version of this camera? That would be a first. I cant imagine canon excluding half (very approx) the world simply because of frame rates. I personally wouldn't bother with this camera if every clip needed to be converted.

September 22nd, 2008, 10:58 AM	#131
Dan Chung Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Beijing Posts: 665	There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally. Dan

September 22nd, 2008, 11:33 AM	#133
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	"There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally" - Dan They need to see to that. Just out of curiosity, which would make a better transfer to 25p,- 24p or 30p?

September 22nd, 2008, 12:27 PM	#135
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	I expect the next one series to include a larger video feature set. It's very Canon-like for their first model of something new to have a modest feature set but have very high IQ. The first all Canon DSLR was the D30. It produced great 3mp cmos images, but otherwise the camera was pretty low end. It seems we will also see a single cmos camcorder as an XL replacement. That will probably have all the expected video functionality plus improved ability to shoot stills. It all about market segmentation. We'll need to see how Canon makes products for different end users with this newer tech. Canon absolutely has target markets for the 5D. Just read the literature. It's not at all surprising that they would not consider broadcast video in a $2600 DSLR. If you're an XL user and but don't see what you do in the 5DII, you can be sure you will see a better fit in future products. There's an odd split in the initial opinion on the 5DII. Cinematographers and photographers mostly say "cool!". Videographers see the 1000 missing pieces they would need to make the 5DII work for them. I don't see people setting down their XL H1 for a 5DII. For them it's more of a demo of the core imaging ability in future products.