Full HD on Canon EOS 5D Mk. II -- officially announced

Don Miller · October 24th, 2008, 08:43 AM

So how does the math work on these cameras?

the 12mp Red sensor only needs about 8 mp for a 4K image. The 5DII apparently uses a full size 16:9 crop of a 21 mp sensor. That ~6 photosites per output pixel. Or perhaps they read alternate lines and it's ~3 photosites per output pixel.

Red has the future possibility of using all the phorosites for 2K, instead of a crop. This change could/should reduce noise.

I don't believe the lower noise DSLRs are using "classic" bayer algorithms anymore. I think when constructing a pixel the algorithms look at more surrounding sata to determine if a value is noisy.

Ivan Pin · October 24th, 2008, 10:57 PM

You should see this: October 19, 2008 on Vimeo

Mike Calla · October 25th, 2008, 09:24 AM

In response to "You should see this: October 19, 2008 on Vimeo"

comment: That footage looks really beautiful!

question: This was filmed in the UK, and a few posters have mentioned that the 50hz lighting in PAL land would flicker when shot with 30P. I didn't see any of that in the praticals such as the street lights. I've never used NTSC in PAL land or vice versa so i really have no experience with light flickering.

So my question is where is the flicker???

If there's no flicker, this camera is fine for us living in PAL land! Soon i'll be shooting a lot of nighttime scenes for a TV show here in PAL land (china) and the thought of using HDV with its nighttime noise makes me cringe and could be a deal breaker when it comes to finding a distributor to sell the show!

A PS question: Film camera operates at 24 frames per sec and they use practicals all the time to supplement film lights, don't they? Say for example a household table lamp in a living room setup. I know they might replace the bulb in the fixtures with a higher wattage but still are they not running at a normal 60/50hz - wouldn't we see the flicker all the time in motion pictures? Do the gennys they use run at 24/48hz? AND if so, does the genny run all the power to a location, even to the practicals?

I really hope the answer is that it DOESN'T matter!!

perplexed
mike

Charles Papert · October 25th, 2008, 11:15 AM

I liked the images themselves but if I saw one more rack-focus I might have pitched the monitor off the desk. I'm not really sure why camera tests have to appear like music videos these days--the idea is to show off the imagery, so what's the point of quick cutting? Sorry to be negative here but I want to see what the camera can do and was frustrated and distracted by the way this was shot and edited.

Dylan Couper · October 25th, 2008, 02:14 PM

The all-mighty power of the rack focus. At least they aren't showing you crash zooms.

Mark Williams · October 25th, 2008, 02:22 PM

At least it was mostly shot on a tripod. I have looked at so much HMC 150 footage recently that was hand held and of the family/pets I got motion sickness.

Nick Hiltgen · October 26th, 2008, 03:58 AM

Charles, I think this link actually IS a music video the vimeo poster just forgot to encode the audio. (He mentions it further down the page) However I could only sit through about 3 minutes before I felt like I was looking at really well shot vacation footage, and scrubbed through to the end.

I think this thing is going to be the closest I get to what I ask for in my signature so I can't wait for it to be released to us plebeians!

Charles Papert · October 26th, 2008, 10:48 AM

Yeah, I saw the bit about the music. I'm all for making camera tests more watcheable--I made a short film to demo the EX1 and Redrock M2 that was hopefully as entertaining as it was demonstrative--but this became more about the cutting and the rack focuses and less about seeing what the camera could do. My feeling would have been to pick 1/3 of the better shots and just let them play.

Tyler Franco · October 27th, 2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Pin

You should see this: October 19, 2008 on Vimeo

It's hard to tell much about the camera with this video. Every shot is a rack focus and just as soon as the focus goes onto the main subject of the frame... the shot is cut. I would have loved to have seen longer, in focus shots as the low light once again looks great!

Alberto Blades · October 28th, 2008, 12:31 PM

the main problem in PAL countries is not the 50hz flicker, which may or may not appear depending on the light conditions, well all we know about murphy's laws.

the real problem in PAL, is that 30p cannot be converted to 25p (or 24p) in a professional way. 30p footage cannot be used for PAL TV, HD or SD, and cannot be used for even create PAL DVD.

so in PAL contries , if canon won't relaease a 25p firmware forget to use the 5DII for anything else than home videos.

Oliver Smith · October 28th, 2008, 09:31 PM

Is it just me, or is the latitude absolutely rubbish on the 5DII? All the test clips I've seen so far have crushed blacks and blown highlights that smack of a phone camera. Brilliant DOF, etc etc etc. Clarity is great. But I'm getting a bit nervous about what I've seen so far. (and I have recently sold my existing camera to replace it with a 5D2 or HVX, and now the $AUD has dropped so far the HVX has dissapeared from my budget constraints!)

Nick Hiltgen · October 29th, 2008, 07:36 AM

Oliver I don't know exactly what you're talking about in the few clips that I've seen the exposure lattitude has been on par or better then most HD Cameras I've worked with. It may not reflect the true abilities of the still portion of the camera but it looks about right to me (especially with the web encoding thats been done) as far as the video clips.

Tom Hardwick · October 29th, 2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Smith

I'm getting a bit nervous about what I've seen so far.

I do hope you're basing these conclusion on observation of the camera's output and not on footage crushed out of all recognition for web streaming Oliver.

Of course you are, you wouldn't have sold your current kit to buy a 30p camera for a 25p county unless you'd made careful analysis of the image and audio quality and deemed them up to scratch.

If at all possible, avoid being an early adopter.

tom.

Mathieu Kassovitz · October 30th, 2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberto Blades

the main problem in PAL countries is not the 50hz flicker, which may or may not appear depending on the light conditions, well all we know about murphy's laws.

the real problem in PAL, is that 30p cannot be converted to 25p (or 24p) in a professional way. 30p footage cannot be used for PAL TV, HD or SD, and cannot be used for even create PAL DVD.

so in PAL contries , if canon won't relaease a 25p firmware forget to use the 5DII for anything else than home videos.

I fully agree. 25p is (24p might be) mandatory.

Thomas Horton · October 30th, 2008, 09:16 PM

You can convert 30p to PAL... Just keep it interlaced (50i). Looks perfectly smooth if you do...

October 25th, 2008, 09:24 AM	#333
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	Where's the PAL flicker some have mentioned?? In response to "You should see this: October 19, 2008 on Vimeo" comment: That footage looks really beautiful! question: This was filmed in the UK, and a few posters have mentioned that the 50hz lighting in PAL land would flicker when shot with 30P. I didn't see any of that in the praticals such as the street lights. I've never used NTSC in PAL land or vice versa so i really have no experience with light flickering. So my question is where is the flicker??? If there's no flicker, this camera is fine for us living in PAL land! Soon i'll be shooting a lot of nighttime scenes for a TV show here in PAL land (china) and the thought of using HDV with its nighttime noise makes me cringe and could be a deal breaker when it comes to finding a distributor to sell the show! A PS question: Film camera operates at 24 frames per sec and they use practicals all the time to supplement film lights, don't they? Say for example a household table lamp in a living room setup. I know they might replace the bulb in the fixtures with a higher wattage but still are they not running at a normal 60/50hz - wouldn't we see the flicker all the time in motion pictures? Do the gennys they use run at 24/48hz? AND if so, does the genny run all the power to a location, even to the practicals? I really hope the answer is that it DOESN'T matter!! perplexed mike __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

October 25th, 2008, 11:15 AM	#334
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	I liked the images themselves but if I saw one more rack-focus I might have pitched the monitor off the desk. I'm not really sure why camera tests have to appear like music videos these days--the idea is to show off the imagery, so what's the point of quick cutting? Sorry to be negative here but I want to see what the camera can do and was frustrated and distracted by the way this was shot and edited. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 25th, 2008, 02:14 PM	#335
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	The all-mighty power of the rack focus. At least they aren't showing you crash zooms. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

October 25th, 2008, 02:22 PM	#336
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	At least it was mostly shot on a tripod. I have looked at so much HMC 150 footage recently that was hand held and of the family/pets I got motion sickness. __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

October 26th, 2008, 03:58 AM	#337
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Charles, I think this link actually IS a music video the vimeo poster just forgot to encode the audio. (He mentions it further down the page) However I could only sit through about 3 minutes before I felt like I was looking at really well shot vacation footage, and scrubbed through to the end. I think this thing is going to be the closest I get to what I ask for in my signature so I can't wait for it to be released to us plebeians! __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

October 24th, 2008, 08:43 AM	#331
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	So how does the math work on these cameras? the 12mp Red sensor only needs about 8 mp for a 4K image. The 5DII apparently uses a full size 16:9 crop of a 21 mp sensor. That ~6 photosites per output pixel. Or perhaps they read alternate lines and it's ~3 photosites per output pixel. Red has the future possibility of using all the phorosites for 2K, instead of a crop. This change could/should reduce noise. I don't believe the lower noise DSLRs are using "classic" bayer algorithms anymore. I think when constructing a pixel the algorithms look at more surrounding sata to determine if a value is noisy.

October 24th, 2008, 10:57 PM	#332
Ivan Pin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Novosibirsk, Russia Posts: 46	You should see this: October 19, 2008 on Vimeo

October 26th, 2008, 10:48 AM	#338
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Yeah, I saw the bit about the music. I'm all for making camera tests more watcheable--I made a short film to demo the EX1 and Redrock M2 that was hopefully as entertaining as it was demonstrative--but this became more about the cutting and the rack focuses and less about seeing what the camera could do. My feeling would have been to pick 1/3 of the better shots and just let them play. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

October 28th, 2008, 12:31 PM	#340
Alberto Blades Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Palo(RD) Posts: 28	the main problem in PAL countries is not the 50hz flicker, which may or may not appear depending on the light conditions, well all we know about murphy's laws. the real problem in PAL, is that 30p cannot be converted to 25p (or 24p) in a professional way. 30p footage cannot be used for PAL TV, HD or SD, and cannot be used for even create PAL DVD. so in PAL contries , if canon won't relaease a 25p firmware forget to use the 5DII for anything else than home videos.

October 28th, 2008, 09:31 PM	#341
Oliver Smith Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 29	Is it just me, or is the latitude absolutely rubbish on the 5DII? All the test clips I've seen so far have crushed blacks and blown highlights that smack of a phone camera. Brilliant DOF, etc etc etc. Clarity is great. But I'm getting a bit nervous about what I've seen so far. (and I have recently sold my existing camera to replace it with a 5D2 or HVX, and now the $AUD has dropped so far the HVX has dissapeared from my budget constraints!) __________________ Liquid Productions

October 29th, 2008, 07:36 AM	#342
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Oliver I don't know exactly what you're talking about in the few clips that I've seen the exposure lattitude has been on par or better then most HD Cameras I've worked with. It may not reflect the true abilities of the still portion of the camera but it looks about right to me (especially with the web encoding thats been done) as far as the video clips. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

October 30th, 2008, 09:16 PM	#345
Thomas Horton New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 24	30p to PAL 50i You can convert 30p to PAL... Just keep it interlaced (50i). Looks perfectly smooth if you do...