Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera

Andy Wilkinson · November 5th, 2012, 06:43 AM

Well if Canon really did remove this feature that really sucks. I guess their Marketing department figured they would sell more lenses by doing this. Instead they will be selling one less EOS M - as I won't now be buying one!

Min Lee · November 6th, 2012, 02:12 PM

I also found that there's a EOS M product advisory on this feature on the Canon website. The advisory mentions only the T3i but the directory is in the EOS M section:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : EOS M EF-M 22mm STM Kit

Just more reason to believe this was an intended feature that was removed. If canon thinks this feature cannibalize their lens sales, then their logic is seriously flawed. People will continue to buy telephoto lenses to shoot stills and will find greater use for their telephoto lenses for video. Removing this feature will just turn more people onto the Panasonic for the Extra Tele Converter mode, which is what I consider doing.

Lee Mullen · November 7th, 2012, 07:36 AM

This guy isnt happy with it at all. Marketing rules technology = FAILURE

Al Bergstein · December 2nd, 2012, 03:11 AM

Well, Failure is an absurd point of view. It's not a failure. I just bought one after playing around with it today. First impressions below.. No images yet, as I want to make sure I'm getting it set right. First impressions of images are very clean, great DOF.

Chris, if you want to start a new thread for it, I'm fine if you want to move my post.

It does have a mic in, no headphone jack (boo). Not sure who is using AV out, I'd rather have a headphone jack. In fact, I think it's the biggest flaw in the camera design. The AV circuitry could likely be replaced with a pre-amp, heck give us a good one while you are at it. The 5D Mkiii seems to have solved the engineering of the pre since it's input sound with an attached mic is very good. Consumer grade video cameras like the Panny TM900 have headphone jacks. So it's not an issue of technology, but engineering.

First impression with the Rode Videomic pro attached and on manual audio levels is that the best for shooting in a quiet kitchen with subject at interview distance of 4 feet or so, was to not pad the Rode, and adjust the volume to about 40 to 50% volume settings. I'm concerned that the internal mics *appear* to be on when the Rode is attached. Need to do more checking on this.It did not seem like it when the camera was recording but when setting the volume levels. Cannot view the volume levels while subject is on screen, need to start shooting in info mode with overlay on screen, not a good thing. That should be solved by a software upgrade. But a design flaw nonetheless.

The M is smaller than I expected. Build quality seems good. Very solid metal feel to it. Heavy like a metal case would feel. Maybe it's just the glass though.

Menus are relatively easy to use in manual mode. INFO Button changes between them. 1st opening screen has simple SS, Fstop, +/- ISO and magnifier. I can get used to that. Push INFO again, no info on screen, Third push you get the quick menu that takes over the screen. Fast adjustments there but no image. Better for getting setup than actually shooting.

Pancake 22mm is ok quality. Manual Focus is a bit funky. Graham is right on the auto focus. The auto focus is too slow, hunts around. I just disabled it. Someone like Graham that is expecting a fast autofocus should not buy this camera. I'm fine with manually focusing. I practically never use autofocus on my 7D and 5D. Guess I'm old school. I just prefer manually focusing my cameras. Having an electronic viewfinder would be great. But do I want a bigger camera for it? Nope. This is a travel camera. If Graham returned it for the Lumix, I think he was not really in the market for a camera of this size. The Lumix is much bigger. I would have understood if he returned for a Sony mirrorless or one of the other mirrorless on the market.

The lack of a digital zoom is not an issue for me. I think that an 18M camera doesn't need one. I can take a raw image and 'digitally zoom' in and probably have better quality than if I did what I've seen manufacturers call digital zoom in the camera. Even likely better quality with video as well. Or is there something I'm missing in that analysis? However, the sensor crop modes do not seem to be showing up in the menus. Perhaps this is something on the zoom lens rather than the pancake? (not sure why that would be).

I would have been ok with a slightly deeper body depth if if it had the reticulated back screen. But it likely wouldn't fit into a coat pocket then. I had an old Nikon digital that had one, and it was too big for coat pockets. This one, is still capable of being thrown into a coat pocket, or worn with strap under a coat.

But I really don't understand who Canon is marketing this to. It's too expensive for the consumer market, doesn't have flash for them, which for consumers is essential (heck I'm worried about not having one, my smaller Elph had one!) and it has hardware specs that pros could use. They should just market it for professionals and high end hobbists, and focus all design on that. Anyone seen the marketing video with a model that seems to be the wrong target market? Silly. They should be marketing with pros talking about the camera that they take when they don't want to carry their 5d or 7d, but want way more control than a smartphone will give them. It's not a "point and shoot". That market is gone to phones. If a GoPro (which I also have one of in my toolkit) is considered "pro" (mainly because of it's fabulous weather sealing) there is no reason this one shouldn't be either for it's DOF, 1080p video, mic in, interchageable Canon glass, etc. Or am I missing something?

But overall, I think it's going to be a nice travel camera that can give me professional results. I'm shooting with a 5D and 7D often, and my old Powershot Elph SD600 (living in a drawer for the last few years), was the last low end travel camera I had (stopped using it a few years back) and took some photos that are still in my professional portfolio. I think this will replace that old unit, and I expect some very good photos from it, along with decent video, when called upon. My hissy Rode Videopro works well with it. It should replace my iPhone which has problems handling bright spots in the frame.

Anyway, I took the plunge. I'll work with it for a month or so, and let you know my impressions. I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't think it would work for a small travel camera. I like being able to use my other Canon glass if need be. But I think I'd just swap out for the 7D if I needed my larger lenses. We'll see. More to follow. Questions?

Tony Davies-Patrick · December 3rd, 2012, 11:21 AM

Here is a very interesting Canon EOS M vs. Olympus OM-D E-M5: AF Speed TEST (using rear touch screen) :

Mitch Chapman · December 3rd, 2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Bergstein

The lack of a digital zoom is not an issue for me. I think that an 18M camera doesn't need one. I can take a raw image and 'digitally zoom' in and probably have better quality than if I did what I've seen manufacturers call digital zoom in the camera. Even likely better quality with video as well. Or is there something I'm missing in that analysis? However, the sensor crop modes do not seem to be showing up in the menus. Perhaps this is something on the zoom lens rather than the pancake? (not sure why that would be).

I'm not sure whether or not this is what you mean by sensor crop mode, but for me one of the most useful features of the Canon T3i, missing from the EOS-M, is the 3x movie digital zoom. It lets me get decent video of wild animals who would otherwise appear as tiny smudges :) And (if I understand correctly) it works by taking full HD samples from the center of the sensor; in any case it produces detailed video.

(And I agree, digital zoom for stills would be pointless on a camera like the EOS-M.)

Al Bergstein · December 9th, 2012, 02:48 AM

I understand. But if i were out shooting wild animals, I personally would be shooting video with a different camera. It's not a dealbreaker for me. I have a choice of cameras, and this one is more for "walkin' around when not on assignment." but to be clear, there is a lot to criticize in it! Magic Lantern might make a killing on it!

Nice job on the Pika shoot! I'll have to give it a try on my 7d, if it has the feature.

Min lee had mentioned that the manual in the pre-production model said it had a sensor crop mode. I cannot find a mention of it in the menues on mine.

Tony, i agree. If autofocus is required feature, and you don't mind a larger camera and lack of Canon interchangeable lenses, go with a different camera. I have always like Olympus's small cameras. Solid feature set for still shooters.But i might be using this as a B cam and want to match a 7d or 5d look. So another plus for the M.

I do find myself wishing for a reticulated screen. But none of my DSLR's have one. My video cameras all do. It really can make a difference I've found.

Chris Hurd · December 9th, 2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Bergstein

Not sure who is using AV out, I'd rather have a headphone jack. In fact, I think it's the biggest flaw in the camera design.

Actually you could have had *both* the AV output and the headphone jack, as Canon used to offer the option to switch the function of that particular 1/8" stereo-mini jack back in the day on their DV camcorder product line. I find it frustrating that they were doing this a decade ago but not now. Also, we currently live in an HDMI world. I don't think there's anyone among the buyers of these cameras who would choose to use the AV output instead of HDMI. That jack should have been for audio output only, or switchable between audio and audio/video, like it used to be on any Canon DV camcorder made from 1997 onward.

Min Lee · December 9th, 2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Bergstein

Min lee had mentioned that the manual in the pre-production model said it had a sensor crop mode. I cannot find a mention of it in the menues on mine.

It was dpreview that had a preproduction model with crop. I mentioned in my earlier post that I don't have that feature when I got my camera. I'm really disappointed that Canon did nothing to correct this error especially since it's on one of the most popular photography sites and they had 3 months between when the review was publish to when the camera became available.

Chris Hurd · December 10th, 2012, 07:54 AM

I don't think it was an error; I think it was a conscious decision to remove that feature. Shameful either way though.

Al Bergstein · January 2nd, 2013, 01:34 AM

Tony, on the AF test, is the M shooting RAW and JPEG? Mine is that slow when i shoot raw.AF is definetly painful. Manual is only wy to go, but hard to focus on 22mm. I think Canon needs a serious upgrade to this, but it has great potential. Lots to like about it. Picture quality is outstanding.

Al Bergstein · July 3rd, 2013, 08:55 PM

As stated elsewhere, the new firmware upgrade seems to solve the AF problems. With price drop this is a very good buy. I used it on an 8 day trip down the Grand Canyon in May. Other than needing 3batteries for 8 days, it was great. Interchangeable with my ef-s lenses. Works great.

November 5th, 2012, 06:43 AM	#46
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera Well if Canon really did remove this feature that really sucks. I guess their Marketing department figured they would sell more lenses by doing this. Instead they will be selling one less EOS M - as I won't now be buying one! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

November 6th, 2012, 02:12 PM	#47
Min Lee Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 200	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera I also found that there's a EOS M product advisory on this feature on the Canon website. The advisory mentions only the T3i but the directory is in the EOS M section: Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : EOS M EF-M 22mm STM Kit Just more reason to believe this was an intended feature that was removed. If canon thinks this feature cannibalize their lens sales, then their logic is seriously flawed. People will continue to buy telephoto lenses to shoot stills and will find greater use for their telephoto lenses for video. Removing this feature will just turn more people onto the Panasonic for the Extra Tele Converter mode, which is what I consider doing.

November 7th, 2012, 07:36 AM	#48
Lee Mullen Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Western Australia Posts: 576	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera This guy isnt happy with it at all. Marketing rules technology = FAILURE Canon EOS M Update and the Panasonic G5 test stills and video - YouTube

December 2nd, 2012, 03:11 AM	#49
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera Well, Failure is an absurd point of view. It's not a failure. I just bought one after playing around with it today. First impressions below.. No images yet, as I want to make sure I'm getting it set right. First impressions of images are very clean, great DOF. Chris, if you want to start a new thread for it, I'm fine if you want to move my post. It does have a mic in, no headphone jack (boo). Not sure who is using AV out, I'd rather have a headphone jack. In fact, I think it's the biggest flaw in the camera design. The AV circuitry could likely be replaced with a pre-amp, heck give us a good one while you are at it. The 5D Mkiii seems to have solved the engineering of the pre since it's input sound with an attached mic is very good. Consumer grade video cameras like the Panny TM900 have headphone jacks. So it's not an issue of technology, but engineering. First impression with the Rode Videomic pro attached and on manual audio levels is that the best for shooting in a quiet kitchen with subject at interview distance of 4 feet or so, was to not pad the Rode, and adjust the volume to about 40 to 50% volume settings. I'm concerned that the internal mics appear to be on when the Rode is attached. Need to do more checking on this.It did not seem like it when the camera was recording but when setting the volume levels. Cannot view the volume levels while subject is on screen, need to start shooting in info mode with overlay on screen, not a good thing. That should be solved by a software upgrade. But a design flaw nonetheless. The M is smaller than I expected. Build quality seems good. Very solid metal feel to it. Heavy like a metal case would feel. Maybe it's just the glass though. Menus are relatively easy to use in manual mode. INFO Button changes between them. 1st opening screen has simple SS, Fstop, +/- ISO and magnifier. I can get used to that. Push INFO again, no info on screen, Third push you get the quick menu that takes over the screen. Fast adjustments there but no image. Better for getting setup than actually shooting. Pancake 22mm is ok quality. Manual Focus is a bit funky. Graham is right on the auto focus. The auto focus is too slow, hunts around. I just disabled it. Someone like Graham that is expecting a fast autofocus should not buy this camera. I'm fine with manually focusing. I practically never use autofocus on my 7D and 5D. Guess I'm old school. I just prefer manually focusing my cameras. Having an electronic viewfinder would be great. But do I want a bigger camera for it? Nope. This is a travel camera. If Graham returned it for the Lumix, I think he was not really in the market for a camera of this size. The Lumix is much bigger. I would have understood if he returned for a Sony mirrorless or one of the other mirrorless on the market. The lack of a digital zoom is not an issue for me. I think that an 18M camera doesn't need one. I can take a raw image and 'digitally zoom' in and probably have better quality than if I did what I've seen manufacturers call digital zoom in the camera. Even likely better quality with video as well. Or is there something I'm missing in that analysis? However, the sensor crop modes do not seem to be showing up in the menus. Perhaps this is something on the zoom lens rather than the pancake? (not sure why that would be). I would have been ok with a slightly deeper body depth if if it had the reticulated back screen. But it likely wouldn't fit into a coat pocket then. I had an old Nikon digital that had one, and it was too big for coat pockets. This one, is still capable of being thrown into a coat pocket, or worn with strap under a coat. But I really don't understand who Canon is marketing this to. It's too expensive for the consumer market, doesn't have flash for them, which for consumers is essential (heck I'm worried about not having one, my smaller Elph had one!) and it has hardware specs that pros could use. They should just market it for professionals and high end hobbists, and focus all design on that. Anyone seen the marketing video with a model that seems to be the wrong target market? Silly. They should be marketing with pros talking about the camera that they take when they don't want to carry their 5d or 7d, but want way more control than a smartphone will give them. It's not a "point and shoot". That market is gone to phones. If a GoPro (which I also have one of in my toolkit) is considered "pro" (mainly because of it's fabulous weather sealing) there is no reason this one shouldn't be either for it's DOF, 1080p video, mic in, interchageable Canon glass, etc. Or am I missing something? But overall, I think it's going to be a nice travel camera that can give me professional results. I'm shooting with a 5D and 7D often, and my old Powershot Elph SD600 (living in a drawer for the last few years), was the last low end travel camera I had (stopped using it a few years back) and took some photos that are still in my professional portfolio. I think this will replace that old unit, and I expect some very good photos from it, along with decent video, when called upon. My hissy Rode Videopro works well with it. It should replace my iPhone which has problems handling bright spots in the frame. Anyway, I took the plunge. I'll work with it for a month or so, and let you know my impressions. I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't think it would work for a small travel camera. I like being able to use my other Canon glass if need be. But I think I'd just swap out for the 7D if I needed my larger lenses. We'll see. More to follow. Questions? Last edited by Al Bergstein; December 2nd, 2012 at 01:14 PM. Reason: added better overview of manual mode menus

December 3rd, 2012, 11:21 AM	#50
Tony Davies-Patrick Trustee Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worldwide Posts: 1,589	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera Here is a very interesting Canon EOS M vs. Olympus OM-D E-M5: AF Speed TEST (using rear touch screen) : Canon EOS M vs. Olympus OM-D E-M5: AF Speed TEST - YouTube __________________ www.WILDCARP.com www.NIKON.me.uk

December 9th, 2012, 02:48 AM	#52
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera I understand. But if i were out shooting wild animals, I personally would be shooting video with a different camera. It's not a dealbreaker for me. I have a choice of cameras, and this one is more for "walkin' around when not on assignment." but to be clear, there is a lot to criticize in it! Magic Lantern might make a killing on it! Nice job on the Pika shoot! I'll have to give it a try on my 7d, if it has the feature. Min lee had mentioned that the manual in the pre-production model said it had a sensor crop mode. I cannot find a mention of it in the menues on mine. Tony, i agree. If autofocus is required feature, and you don't mind a larger camera and lack of Canon interchangeable lenses, go with a different camera. I have always like Olympus's small cameras. Solid feature set for still shooters.But i might be using this as a B cam and want to match a 7d or 5d look. So another plus for the M. I do find myself wishing for a reticulated screen. But none of my DSLR's have one. My video cameras all do. It really can make a difference I've found.

December 10th, 2012, 07:54 AM	#55
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera I don't think it was an error; I think it was a conscious decision to remove that feature. Shameful either way though. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 2nd, 2013, 01:34 AM	#56
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera Tony, on the AF test, is the M shooting RAW and JPEG? Mine is that slow when i shoot raw.AF is definetly painful. Manual is only wy to go, but hard to focus on 22mm. I think Canon needs a serious upgrade to this, but it has great potential. Lots to like about it. Picture quality is outstanding.

July 3rd, 2013, 08:55 PM	#57
Al Bergstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Townsend, WA Posts: 456	Re: Canon USA Announces EOS M Mirrorless APS-C Camera As stated elsewhere, the new firmware upgrade seems to solve the AF problems. With price drop this is a very good buy. I used it on an 8 day trip down the Grand Canyon in May. Other than needing 3batteries for 8 days, it was great. Interchangeable with my ef-s lenses. Works great.