Question about full frame at DVinfo.net

Stuart Meed · April 7th, 2012, 02:52 PM

I understand the basic difference in sensor size 7D verses 5D MIII, but I still have a question.

Say I take test photos with a 7D and 5D Mark III with the same lens, of the same object, at the same distance with the same lens and zoom level. If I zoom in 100% on the picture I take, will the Mark III image still be smaller or will it's 22 meg processor make up for the cropped sensor in the 7D with it's 18 meg processor?

Does this question make sense?

I know I cannot zoom in as close with the full frame camera but what will the final crop options be when viewing at 100%. How do the camera's compare?

R Geoff Baker · April 7th, 2012, 05:15 PM

The image taken by the APS-C camera will be a cropped version of the image taken by the FF camera. For example, if you used a 50mm lens on both cameras, the FF image would have a 'normal' angle of view, but the same shot with the same lens on the APS-C camera would look like it was taken by an 85mm lens on the FF ... or you could crop the FF image to be exactly the same as the one taken by the APS-C camera. In both cases the image would be taken using a 50mm lens.

Clear as mud?

Not sure where 'zooming at 100%' would come into play, but if you are attempting to pixel peep then you can do the math and see whether an APS-C sized crop of a FF sensor came to the same thing ... all else being equal. That is to say there is processing going on, and pixel size et cetera that will have an effect on final image look too ...

Cheers,
GB

Chris Medico · April 7th, 2012, 08:22 PM

The pixels on the 5d miii are larger than ones the 7d so a 100% zoom on the 7d will appear to be a tighter shot than a 100% zoom on the 5d.

Brian Brown · April 7th, 2012, 08:33 PM

If when you say "zooming to 100%" you mean zooming to the pixel level in photos, the additional pixels in the 5D3 still won't overcome the 1.6x crop factor of the 7D. The pixel on the 5D3 will show less of the image than the 7D, when shot with the same lens from the same location.

Naturally, when shooting video, the APS-C sensor is a full 1.6x crop of a FF one, since most of each sensor's pixels are thrown away to arrive at exactly 1920x1080 pixels from either sensor.

Stuart Meed · April 8th, 2012, 07:11 AM

So, if my desire is to get the closest highest resolution shot of say, a bird, from my 70-300mm zoom lens, my 7D would have an edge over the 5D MIII ?

I understand that the 5DmIII has a huge advantage with wide angle shots.

Chris Medico · April 8th, 2012, 07:18 AM

That is correct. The smaller pixels of the 7d will give the impression of a longer lens in comparison to the 5d miii.

Stuart Meed · April 8th, 2012, 07:38 AM

Chris,

When shooting video on your 7D what custom settings do you use.
Do you have your custom settings like this guy shows?

I understand that I need to make sure my camera cannot change WB, ISO when recording.

Brian Brown · April 8th, 2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Meed

So, if my desire is to get the closest highest resolution shot of say, a bird, from my 70-300mm zoom lens, my 7D would have an edge over the 5D MIII ?

I understand that the 5DmIII has a huge advantage with wide angle shots.

Yes, the crop sensor cams have a big advantage on the telephoto end. Your same lens would have to be a 112mm-480mm on a FF, and long, fast glass gets a LOT more spendy.

You're correct about wider lenses getting the converse advantage on a FF body. BUT, both Canon and Nikon make lenses at the wide end specifically for crop bodies. Because crop bodies require a much-smaller image circle, these can be made cheaper than the corresponding wide glass for a FF body. Not to mention, easier to get good sharpness and less vignetting in the corners. Trade offs...

FWIW, FF bodies can use cheaper, poorer-quality glass than crop bodies, because of that massive sensor. Ken Rockwell explains it all better than I ever could... The Full-Frame Advantage

Stuart Meed · April 10th, 2012, 08:22 AM

Brian,

Thanks for that input. I suspect that I will someday move to a FF Canon once they come out with something that has AF options while shooting video.

In the meantime, I'm trying to collect some lenses that will work for both. I currently have the 17-55 which seems like a great walk around lense and a 70-300 L zoom lens.

My wish list includes a 50mm 1.2L lense and a wide angle like the 16-35 f/2.8L II USM (I don't want a fish eye).

Will that 16-35 work well on my 7D? You mention special lenses for wide on the 7D. While I would like to stay with lenses that will work well on a FF, I am open to suggestions.

Thanks, Stuart

Brian Brown · April 10th, 2012, 09:32 AM

Sure, Stuart, happy to help. Your 17-55 is a fantastic lens on the crop sensor bodies, but is an EF-S lens and won't work (AFAIK) on a FF. Purchasing lenses to work with both a crop sensor cam (for now) and a FF cam (for later) might be an expensive proposition. Especially if you never move up to a FF Canon body. In the future, you might find a Nikon or even a Sony FF body has more features and/or more "bang for your buck" that you desire. Lenses that cover the FF, especially on the wide end, just cost more.

Lenses hold their value extremely well, especially the Canon and Nikon ones, and you'll be able to sell what you want, when you want, and get back about 90% of the original purchase price, if you take good care of them.

A great choice for an ultrawide is the Tokina 11-16/2.8. This is intended as an EF-S lens, but will indeed work on a FF Canon around the 15mm setting. And it's less than half the price of the much less-wide (on a crop body) 16-35 that you're considering. And 11mm on the crop body is as wide as it gets, short of a fisheye. The thing is built like a tank, and I love mine. My new 5D3 shows up tomorrow, and I'll know for certain how it fares on a FF camera. Even buying a super-wide 15mm prime costs more than the Tokina, too.

Stuart Meed · April 10th, 2012, 10:07 AM

Yes, please keep us updated on how your Tokina 11-16/2.8 shoot on my MKIII.

I'm sure I'll move to FF sometime. That said, I can always sell the wide angle lens with my 7D when the time comes.

I'm also looking forward to your other impressions on that camera.

Stuart Meed · April 13th, 2012, 09:53 AM

Hey, how about the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM SLR for full frame instead of the Tokina 11-16/2.8?

I hear good things about both and like the fact that the Tokina is faster and cheaper.

Opinions?

Chris Hurd · April 13th, 2012, 10:03 AM

Stuart -- please be aware that EF-S lenses are *not* physically compatible with Full Frame bodies.

They will mount only on APS-C crop-sensor cameras like the 7D, 60D and rebel series.

Stuart Meed · April 13th, 2012, 10:20 AM

Yes I know, I currently have a 7D.

I understand there is really not a great wide angle that will play nice with both FF and my cropped sensor.

Tokina or Canon wide angle. Which is the best option for me and my 7D?

Brian Brown · April 16th, 2012, 01:54 PM

Hi Stuart. I posted a couple of pics of the Tokina 11-16mm/2.8 on both my 7D AND my 5D3 and made a post about it.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...-8-my-5d3.html

I don't own the Canon 10-22mm EF-S to see how bad it vignettes. Maybe the guys at the local(ish) camera store will let me put it on my 5D3 and try it out.

April 7th, 2012, 02:52 PM	#1
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Question about full frame I understand the basic difference in sensor size 7D verses 5D MIII, but I still have a question. Say I take test photos with a 7D and 5D Mark III with the same lens, of the same object, at the same distance with the same lens and zoom level. If I zoom in 100% on the picture I take, will the Mark III image still be smaller or will it's 22 meg processor make up for the cropped sensor in the 7D with it's 18 meg processor? Does this question make sense? I know I cannot zoom in as close with the full frame camera but what will the final crop options be when viewing at 100%. How do the camera's compare?

April 7th, 2012, 05:15 PM	#2
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Re: Question about full frame The image taken by the APS-C camera will be a cropped version of the image taken by the FF camera. For example, if you used a 50mm lens on both cameras, the FF image would have a 'normal' angle of view, but the same shot with the same lens on the APS-C camera would look like it was taken by an 85mm lens on the FF ... or you could crop the FF image to be exactly the same as the one taken by the APS-C camera. In both cases the image would be taken using a 50mm lens. Clear as mud? Not sure where 'zooming at 100%' would come into play, but if you are attempting to pixel peep then you can do the math and see whether an APS-C sized crop of a FF sensor came to the same thing ... all else being equal. That is to say there is processing going on, and pixel size et cetera that will have an effect on final image look too ... Cheers, GB

April 7th, 2012, 08:22 PM	#3
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Question about full frame The pixels on the 5d miii are larger than ones the 7d so a 100% zoom on the 7d will appear to be a tighter shot than a 100% zoom on the 5d. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

April 7th, 2012, 08:33 PM	#4
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Re: Question about full frame If when you say "zooming to 100%" you mean zooming to the pixel level in photos, the additional pixels in the 5D3 still won't overcome the 1.6x crop factor of the 7D. The pixel on the 5D3 will show less of the image than the 7D, when shot with the same lens from the same location. Naturally, when shooting video, the APS-C sensor is a full 1.6x crop of a FF one, since most of each sensor's pixels are thrown away to arrive at exactly 1920x1080 pixels from either sensor.

April 8th, 2012, 07:11 AM	#5
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame So, if my desire is to get the closest highest resolution shot of say, a bird, from my 70-300mm zoom lens, my 7D would have an edge over the 5D MIII ? I understand that the 5DmIII has a huge advantage with wide angle shots.

April 8th, 2012, 07:18 AM	#6
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Question about full frame That is correct. The smaller pixels of the 7d will give the impression of a longer lens in comparison to the 5d miii. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

April 8th, 2012, 07:38 AM	#7
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame Chris, When shooting video on your 7D what custom settings do you use. Do you have your custom settings like this guy shows? 1. Prep Canon 7D to shoot in Movie Mode - Tutorial (interactive selection) - YouTube I understand that I need to make sure my camera cannot change WB, ISO when recording.

April 10th, 2012, 08:22 AM	#9
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame Brian, Thanks for that input. I suspect that I will someday move to a FF Canon once they come out with something that has AF options while shooting video. In the meantime, I'm trying to collect some lenses that will work for both. I currently have the 17-55 which seems like a great walk around lense and a 70-300 L zoom lens. My wish list includes a 50mm 1.2L lense and a wide angle like the 16-35 f/2.8L II USM (I don't want a fish eye). Will that 16-35 work well on my 7D? You mention special lenses for wide on the 7D. While I would like to stay with lenses that will work well on a FF, I am open to suggestions. Thanks, Stuart

April 10th, 2012, 09:32 AM	#10
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Re: Question about full frame Sure, Stuart, happy to help. Your 17-55 is a fantastic lens on the crop sensor bodies, but is an EF-S lens and won't work (AFAIK) on a FF. Purchasing lenses to work with both a crop sensor cam (for now) and a FF cam (for later) might be an expensive proposition. Especially if you never move up to a FF Canon body. In the future, you might find a Nikon or even a Sony FF body has more features and/or more "bang for your buck" that you desire. Lenses that cover the FF, especially on the wide end, just cost more. Lenses hold their value extremely well, especially the Canon and Nikon ones, and you'll be able to sell what you want, when you want, and get back about 90% of the original purchase price, if you take good care of them. A great choice for an ultrawide is the Tokina 11-16/2.8. This is intended as an EF-S lens, but will indeed work on a FF Canon around the 15mm setting. And it's less than half the price of the much less-wide (on a crop body) 16-35 that you're considering. And 11mm on the crop body is as wide as it gets, short of a fisheye. The thing is built like a tank, and I love mine. My new 5D3 shows up tomorrow, and I'll know for certain how it fares on a FF camera. Even buying a super-wide 15mm prime costs more than the Tokina, too.

April 10th, 2012, 10:07 AM	#11
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame Yes, please keep us updated on how your Tokina 11-16/2.8 shoot on my MKIII. I'm sure I'll move to FF sometime. That said, I can always sell the wide angle lens with my 7D when the time comes. I'm also looking forward to your other impressions on that camera.

April 13th, 2012, 09:53 AM	#12
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame Hey, how about the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM SLR for full frame instead of the Tokina 11-16/2.8? I hear good things about both and like the fact that the Tokina is faster and cheaper. Opinions?

April 13th, 2012, 10:03 AM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Re: Question about full frame Stuart -- please be aware that EF-S lenses are not physically compatible with Full Frame bodies. They will mount only on APS-C crop-sensor cameras like the 7D, 60D and rebel series. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 13th, 2012, 10:20 AM	#14
Stuart Meed New Boot Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Elkhart Indiana Posts: 12	Re: Question about full frame Yes I know, I currently have a 7D. I understand there is really not a great wide angle that will play nice with both FF and my cropped sensor. Tokina or Canon wide angle. Which is the best option for me and my 7D?

April 16th, 2012, 01:54 PM	#15
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Re: Question about full frame Hi Stuart. I posted a couple of pics of the Tokina 11-16mm/2.8 on both my 7D AND my 5D3 and made a post about it. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...-8-my-5d3.html I don't own the Canon 10-22mm EF-S to see how bad it vignettes. Maybe the guys at the local(ish) camera store will let me put it on my 5D3 and try it out.