60D's 1/30 shutter speed at DVinfo.net

Murray Christian · February 28th, 2011, 07:35 PM

Hello all. I couldn't find anything specifically about this at a glance so here goes.

I was wondering how folks are finding 1/30th shutter on the 60D.
I know well enough that it's always said you shouldn't go below 1/50 when shooting 25 or 24p. Mostly this is because of the extra motion blur you can get. And I'd say I've seen it for myself when shooting with the 550D and maybe even the 7D (not sure though, it was a while ago). It was just a little too blurry. Streaks show up in fast movment. It really stuck out.

But now owning a 60D and playing with it for a while I find I've been flipping down to 1/30, with some trepidation at first, but after some testing no problems that I can see. I've been loving the extra exposure and it looks fine. I've shot dancers and musicians in low light, dogs running in the park and if you're not after any specific higher shutter speed sharpness of movement, it's perfectly fine. Certainly not as I remember seeing on other cameras. The motion blur is well within that of typical sources like film and TV, to my eye (where they're not doing any high shutter speed work of course)

I've not done any side by side comparisons or anything, but is it possible the 60D is just slightly better at its 1/30th than some others?

Jon Fairhurst · February 28th, 2011, 09:24 PM

When you need an extra stop, there's nothing wrong with shooting 1/30. It can be a bit mushy, but few will notice.

John Wiley · March 2nd, 2011, 10:56 PM

1/30th is 1/30th. You'll get the same amount of motion blur from any camera if you are using an identical shutterspeed.

That said, there's nothing wrong with dropping down to 1/30th when the light demands it.

Jon Fairhurst · March 3rd, 2011, 12:13 AM

1/30th is the same as 1/30th - except when it isn't. In other words, not all cameras are exactly identical.

I took a close look at the images of the 5D2 at various shutter speeds with consistent motion by using a turntable. The results surprised me a bit in that there was a strong leading (or was it trailing?) edge with a softer edge on the other end. Overall, that leads me to believe that the 5D2 at 1/30 might have slightly less of a blur effect than a camera with a more uniform blur from edge to edge.

Of course we're talking subtleties here. I don't know that I'd be able to see the difference in real time with the naked eye. In any case, it's interesting to look closely at a frame grab of something with uniform motion. I guess each camera model has its own fingerprints.

Greg Fiske · March 3rd, 2011, 10:32 AM

When choosing between iso or shutter speed, which will give you a more pleasing image. I was at 6400 iso at a reception last weekend, I'm wondering if I should have shot at 1/30 for the dancing?

Chris Westerstrom · March 3rd, 2011, 04:50 PM

most will say that you'll get far too much noise in an ISO setting that high
whereas you'll get motion blur with a shutter speed too low.

So it's a trade off. Or you can use them moderately in both.
I find it's fine to use ISO of up to 1600 on the 7d, I was blown away how there was so much less noise with the 5d at even higher ISO's/
Personally, I think lower ISO and lower shutter speed is the way to go, if you don't want to go too shallow with your dof.

To be honest, moderate amounts of each I can find, personally, somewhat pleasing-
motion blur gives a touch of softness and dreaminess to the image
and I think the noise in the picture gives a little depth to it sometimes. But remember, you can always add noise in post. You can also remove it using something like Neat Video, but it takes work and some serious render times

-note, this is in moderate amounts, and some noise from higher ISO is more pleasing on some cameras than others (nikon's noise is a bit prettier than Canon's IMO)

Greg Fiske · March 3rd, 2011, 05:03 PM

Can these camera's be tricked/hacked to go below 1/30? Like shooting video in still mode? the motion blurr in Maestro, for example:

He says they only used time lapse at the end, so how does he get the tail light trails?

John Wiley · March 3rd, 2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

1/30th is the same as 1/30th - except when it isn't. In other words, not all cameras are exactly identical.

I took a close look at the images of the 5D2 at various shutter speeds with consistent motion by using a turntable. The results surprised me a bit in that there was a strong leading (or was it trailing?) edge with a softer edge on the other end. Overall, that leads me to believe that the 5D2 at 1/30 might have slightly less of a blur effect than a camera with a more uniform blur from edge to edge.

Of course we're talking subtleties here. I don't know that I'd be able to see the difference in real time with the naked eye. In any case, it's interesting to look closely at a frame grab of something with uniform motion. I guess each camera model has its own fingerprints.

This could've been due to the CMOS rolling shutter, which would account for why motion blur is more apparent in some areas of the image than in others - because they were sampled at different times.

Jon Fairhurst · March 3rd, 2011, 07:09 PM

Rolling shutter? That's a good thought, but I don't think that's it. Sure, the moving object was leaning, but the motion was horizontal, so I was looking at the blur within a line. I wonder if vertical motion blur looks different?

I'm thinking that it has to do with the electronic shutter (closely related to rolling shutter). When the trigger signal arrives, or when the signal is first sampled, there might be some overshoot. With a mechanical shutter, the medium is just sitting there, waiting to be exposed. With an electronic shutter, the medium is constantly exposed to the light, but it's reset and later the data is read. It's not surprising that there would be a few bumps in the road with that method.

John Wiley · March 3rd, 2011, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Fiske

Can these camera's be tricked/hacked to go below 1/30? Like shooting video in still mode?
He says they only used time lapse at the end, so how does he get the tail light trails?

I couldn't get the video to play but as he says he used time lapse, that explains why there would be light trails - because he was shooting in stills mode.

I'm guessing the 1/30th limitation may have been implemented for those still photographers who don't understand the limitations of video and might've tried to shoot video at 1/5th without realising they are essentially shooting at 5fps by doing so (those same people who shoot video with the camera in portait orientation, then realise something is wrong when they plug in into the TV and everything is sideways!)

February 28th, 2011, 07:35 PM	#1
Murray Christian Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 240	60D's 1/30 shutter speed Hello all. I couldn't find anything specifically about this at a glance so here goes. I was wondering how folks are finding 1/30th shutter on the 60D. I know well enough that it's always said you shouldn't go below 1/50 when shooting 25 or 24p. Mostly this is because of the extra motion blur you can get. And I'd say I've seen it for myself when shooting with the 550D and maybe even the 7D (not sure though, it was a while ago). It was just a little too blurry. Streaks show up in fast movment. It really stuck out. But now owning a 60D and playing with it for a while I find I've been flipping down to 1/30, with some trepidation at first, but after some testing no problems that I can see. I've been loving the extra exposure and it looks fine. I've shot dancers and musicians in low light, dogs running in the park and if you're not after any specific higher shutter speed sharpness of movement, it's perfectly fine. Certainly not as I remember seeing on other cameras. The motion blur is well within that of typical sources like film and TV, to my eye (where they're not doing any high shutter speed work of course) I've not done any side by side comparisons or anything, but is it possible the 60D is just slightly better at its 1/30th than some others?

February 28th, 2011, 09:24 PM	#2
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed When you need an extra stop, there's nothing wrong with shooting 1/30. It can be a bit mushy, but few will notice. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 2nd, 2011, 10:56 PM	#3
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed 1/30th is 1/30th. You'll get the same amount of motion blur from any camera if you are using an identical shutterspeed. That said, there's nothing wrong with dropping down to 1/30th when the light demands it.

March 3rd, 2011, 12:13 AM	#4
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed 1/30th is the same as 1/30th - except when it isn't. In other words, not all cameras are exactly identical. I took a close look at the images of the 5D2 at various shutter speeds with consistent motion by using a turntable. The results surprised me a bit in that there was a strong leading (or was it trailing?) edge with a softer edge on the other end. Overall, that leads me to believe that the 5D2 at 1/30 might have slightly less of a blur effect than a camera with a more uniform blur from edge to edge. Of course we're talking subtleties here. I don't know that I'd be able to see the difference in real time with the naked eye. In any case, it's interesting to look closely at a frame grab of something with uniform motion. I guess each camera model has its own fingerprints. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 3rd, 2011, 10:32 AM	#5
Greg Fiske Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Santa Ana, CA Posts: 499	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed When choosing between iso or shutter speed, which will give you a more pleasing image. I was at 6400 iso at a reception last weekend, I'm wondering if I should have shot at 1/30 for the dancing?

March 3rd, 2011, 04:50 PM	#6
Chris Westerstrom Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden Posts: 259	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed most will say that you'll get far too much noise in an ISO setting that high whereas you'll get motion blur with a shutter speed too low. So it's a trade off. Or you can use them moderately in both. I find it's fine to use ISO of up to 1600 on the 7d, I was blown away how there was so much less noise with the 5d at even higher ISO's/ Personally, I think lower ISO and lower shutter speed is the way to go, if you don't want to go too shallow with your dof. To be honest, moderate amounts of each I can find, personally, somewhat pleasing- motion blur gives a touch of softness and dreaminess to the image and I think the noise in the picture gives a little depth to it sometimes. But remember, you can always add noise in post. You can also remove it using something like Neat Video, but it takes work and some serious render times -note, this is in moderate amounts, and some noise from higher ISO is more pleasing on some cameras than others (nikon's noise is a bit prettier than Canon's IMO)

March 3rd, 2011, 05:03 PM	#7
Greg Fiske Major Player Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Santa Ana, CA Posts: 499	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed Can these camera's be tricked/hacked to go below 1/30? Like shooting video in still mode? the motion blurr in Maestro, for example: The Maestro on Vimeo He says they only used time lapse at the end, so how does he get the tail light trails?

March 3rd, 2011, 07:09 PM	#9
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 60D's 1/30 shutter speed Rolling shutter? That's a good thought, but I don't think that's it. Sure, the moving object was leaning, but the motion was horizontal, so I was looking at the blur within a line. I wonder if vertical motion blur looks different? I'm thinking that it has to do with the electronic shutter (closely related to rolling shutter). When the trigger signal arrives, or when the signal is first sampled, there might be some overshoot. With a mechanical shutter, the medium is just sitting there, waiting to be exposed. With an electronic shutter, the medium is constantly exposed to the light, but it's reset and later the data is read. It's not surprising that there would be a few bumps in the road with that method. __________________ Jon Fairhurst