Picture style and WB.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Sam Tansey

By electronic, I did mean analogue, ie it sends more power to blue channel, that is what it sounds like your saying when you say it increases the gain. Im not an expert on audio visual electronics but I have always thought of Gain is an analogue process. If it is the case that WB adjusts the sensor gain on different light channels, then it would make sense even when shooting raw to try and get close to neutral.

Gain can be applied digitally, or analog. In our modern cameras, it's done digitally, but the end result is exactly the same.

The thing about RAW is that the data is captured in the signal path BEFORE gain is applied. So it doesn't matter how you white balance.

Originally Posted by Sam Tansey

Many people using these camera's (probably most people) and by the sounds of it this includes the OP are using it to shoot live events where they have very limited control over the color of the light. Personally I bought the camera to shoot live music, others might be shooting weddings etc. In these circumstances the live lighting and how it looks to the naked eye is far more important (if controlled at all) then how it will be recorded. We just have to work with it and use our cameras in a way that gives the best results.

I think I might argue your point. At least for video. The Canon cameras are really quite poor live event cameras. They overheat, they cannot record much beyond 12 minutes at a time, they have poor audio capability. If I were shooting live events, I might use one as a B-Camera, but almost certainly I wouldn't use it as my primary tool. However, for narrative work, they are far more ideally suited. Takes rarely run past 3 minutes, overheating isn't really too much of a problem, audio is generally being recorded off-camera, etc. It's very much a mirror of a film camera workflow.

If someone IS using these as a live event camera, then I'd do a custom white balance, leave the camera on Neutral or Faithful, and just have at it.

[Martyn Hull]

Could some body tell me how to get on the color presets in video mode or can this only be done in camera mode,personaly i prefer awb to custom on mine but i have not found out the presets yet despite ogling the manual,sad i know

[Jon Fairhurst]

Perrone,

I think I understand your point, but don't you end up having to apply gain (greater or less than unity) to the various channels to white balance the final grade anyway? I would think that applying that gain in the 14-bit domain in the camera, and maximizing the information in the 8-bit signal would be the way to go. Sure, it's all digital, but working in the 14-bit domain is a lot closer to analog than the 8-bit domain.

The other aspect has to do with maximizing dynamic range. If you have a gain mismatch before the 8-bit encoder, it's possible that you will clip the hot channel (if saturated) and/or deliver too few bits from the cold channel (especially if there is low saturation.) Again, I want to multiply the 14-bit data to maximize the information from the 8-bit output.

In any case, I really like the results when applying a small amount of noise reduction to the final signal in 32-bits float, and then grading immediately, while still in 32-bits. It doesn't give color accuracy that a raw photo can provide, but it does result in nice, smooth gradients.

I'll have to do some tests in blue and red light. BTW, using a blue filter in a tungsten environment is probably not the way to go, unless it's really bright. It would be possible that a blue filter would just mean more gain in all of the channels, rather than just the blue channel. But given enough light, a blue filter could be a nice trick.

[Sam Tansey]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Gain can be applied digitally, or analog. In our modern cameras, it's done digitally, but the end result is exactly the same.

The thing about RAW is that the data is captured in the signal path BEFORE gain is applied. So it doesn't matter how you white balance.



I think I might argue your point. At least for video. The Canon cameras are really quite poor live event cameras. They overheat, they cannot record much beyond 12 minutes at a time, they have poor audio capability. If I were shooting live events, I might use one as a B-Camera, but almost certainly I wouldn't use it as my primary tool. However, for narrative work, they are far more ideally suited. Takes rarely run past 3 minutes, overheating isn't really too much of a problem, audio is generally being recorded off-camera, etc. It's very much a mirror of a film camera workflow.

If someone IS using these as a live event camera, then I'd do a custom white balance, leave the camera on Neutral or Faithful, and just have at it.

I don't really want to argue about what they should be used for, as they are being used for a whole range of purposes for a whole range of reasons, as with any technology in consumer pricing brackets there will be a range of compromises when choosing between brands and models, and in this case between HD camcorder and DSLR.

You are obviously coming from a professional background, where these camera's are being used for very specific purposes. Thats fine for you, but for me, I could only buy one camera, $1500 was my budget and this is what I chose. Furthermore, I actually needed both a stills and a video camera, fortunately for me the 550d allowed me to have both.

For recording live music, of the indie, pub, club variety imho they are great. Songs rarely go more then 5 minutes and I'm yet to have an issue with overheating when recording up to 1hr sets. They have good low light ability, (when paired with a fast prime) and shallow dof is a lovely tool for shifting points of attention when capturing on a tripod from an awkward corner of the room. It is a major bonus that with the same tool you can take great photo's. Sound is just as easily done externally as when shooting narrative.

[Gustavs Repse]

Originally Posted by Martyn Hull

Could some body tell me how to get on the color presets in video mode or can this only be done in camera mode,personaly i prefer awb to custom on mine but i have not found out the presets yet despite ogling the manual,sad i know

If i undarstand corrrectly to get what ur looking for you need to go aither in menu/Picture style/pres set/chose any you like or if you want to make ur own preset go to User Def 1 and pres the "Disp." buton.

Other way is to go in video mode and press the Q buton and there you can chose the WB/picture syle and other options wich you can change with shutter scroll automatically seeing the effect on Video .

Hope this is what you were looking for.

[Sam Tansey]

Originally Posted by Gustavs Repse

If i undarstand corrrectly to get what ur looking for you need to go aither in menu/Picture style/pres set/chose any you like or if you want to make ur own preset go to User Def 1 and pres the "Disp." buton.

Other way is to go in video mode and press the Q buton and there you can chose the WB/picture syle and other options wich you can change with shutter scroll automatically seeing the effect on Video .

Hope this is what you were looking for.

You can customize (to an extent) any of the factory presets by pressing the disp button. User defined allows you to have either a second customized factory preset, a preset you have made yourself using the picture style editing software, or a picture style that someone else has made and you have downloaded such as Marvel Cine, Super Flat or Fuji Reala, (or a bunch of others that people have made supposedly mimicking the characteristics of film stocks. etc.

[Martyn Hull]

Originally Posted by Gustavs Repse

If i undarstand corrrectly to get what ur looking for you need to go aither in menu/Picture style/pres set/chose any you like or if you want to make ur own preset go to User Def 1 and pres the "Disp." buton.

Other way is to go in video mode and press the Q buton and there you can chose the WB/picture syle and other options wich you can change with shutter scroll automatically seeing the effect on Video .

Hope this is what you were looking for.

My friends i am so thick ,thank you so much you are far better at explaining than the manual

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Sam Tansey

I don't really want to argue about what they should be used for, as they are being used for a whole range of purposes for a whole range of reasons, as with any technology in consumer pricing brackets there will be a range of compromises when choosing between brands and models, and in this case between HD camcorder and DSLR.

No argument. I was just giving my opinion.

Originally Posted by Sam Tansey

You are obviously coming from a professional background, where these camera's are being used for very specific purposes. Thats fine for you, but for me, I could only buy one camera, $1500 was my budget and this is what I chose. Furthermore, I actually needed both a stills and a video camera, fortunately for me the 550d allowed me to have both.

Honestly, if you can only have one camera at that price range, and especially if you need stills, I couldn't think of a a better camera to have. Just have to work around the shortcomings. Clearly, it's working well for you.

Originally Posted by Sam Tansey

For recording live music, of the indie, pub, club variety imho they are great. Songs rarely go more then 5 minutes and I'm yet to have an issue with overheating when recording up to 1hr sets. They have good low light ability, (when paired with a fast prime) and shallow dof is a lovely tool for shifting points of attention when capturing on a tripod from an awkward corner of the room. It is a major bonus that with the same tool you can take great photo's. Sound is just as easily done externally as when shooting narrative.

I use my 550D much the same way. In fact, I am about to use one on my first live event this coming weekend. I still don't know what I am going to do for sound though. This is one time I wish I had one of those Zoom recorders as taking my audio recorder will be a bit of a pain.

[Daniel Browning]

Even if you don't have enough light to use a blue filter as a noise-reducer, it can be used for another benefit: reducing clipping highlights. Red can easily blow out (especially at ISO 1600, where I find myself often in Tungsten light), so having an extra two stops is a nice benefit from the blue filter, even if the noise level stays the same.

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

In fact, one might want to screw on or mount a blue filter for filming on bright days, as compared to shooting with a straight ND filter.

For typical daylight, a magenta filter is the best as the green is usually at least a stop above both red and blue. Of course, any filter (magenta, blur, or otherwise) necessarily changes the color rendition a little bit, even after white balancing, because the filters own spectral response convolves with those of each of the RGB CFAs.

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

But I still think you can WB to fine tune the 8-bit output.

I agree. Getting WB (and everything else for that matter) as close as possible to what you're planning for post is what results in the highest quality, though sometimes the difference is small enough not to matter. It can also be difficult to get the WB just so (even with a wide variety of neutral to off-neutral white balance cards).