7D or 5D for video... please help

[Travis Cossel]

Originally Posted by James Strange

Travis have you got the latest firmware on the 7d?

Since I put it on I've not had overheat icon once, before it would pop up every 45 mins or so

I just updated them today with the latest firmware. I was holding out to make sure the firmware didn't have any glitches or bugs. Plus I was under the impression that the update merely raised the level at which the warning came up, but today I read that it also raises the level at which the camera will shut down.

[Bill Pryor]

I've never had a heating problem with the 7D, even when using it with the original firmware. I haven't done any shooting in direct 100 degree sun...more like low 90s. I almost always turn it off between setups.

Although I really, really like the 7D and I think it's better overall for video than the 5DMKII, I am getting a 5DMKII which arrives tomorrow. For one reason only: lenses. When I got the 7D I wasn't totally committed to the HDSLR; it was going to be just a backup camera. However, I've shot around 15 or 16 training, motivational, sales, and documentary videos with it since October while the XH A1 sits on a shelf. Now that I'm in it for good, I need better lenses. I'm selling my 7D with 3 lenses for enough money so it's actually less money for me to buy a 5DMKII with the lenses I want than equip the 7D with all the high quality lenses it would need.

This only works because of 2 reasons--I need wider angles and I have some excellent Nikkor primes. They just aren't wide enough for my needs with the 7D. The only 2 lenses I'm getting with the 5D are the Zeiss ZE 50 1.4 and the Canon 70-200 f4 L. All of my shooting will be with primes except for when I do the documentary-style interviews where I need to change focal lengths between questions. I shot all last week with the Nikkor primes, except for when I needed wider shots and used a Tokina 16-50 on the 7D. The difference between the primes and a zoom really shows up. Same for the 17-55, which is a nice lens, but primes just look better...not just in sharpness but in color and contrast as well.

The really nice 14mm L lens, which is slightly wider than 24mm on the 7D, costs almost as much as a 5DMKII. I really wanted a good quality wide angle prime since I use wide angles a lot. The fact that I have all the Nikkor lenses I need is what makes this move do-able for me.

In looking at a 5DMKII side by side with the 7D, it's interesting how the 7D feels better. It's a little more compact and feels more solid. I think it is just slightly heavier. It's also more ergonomic, and the 5D is lacking in some of the niceties in that department. Like the on/off switch up on top of the 7D. The 5D has it in a difficult to get to location and it's hard to turn on with one finger. The toggle between camera and video mode with the video record button isn't on the 5D.

The big disadvantage, to me, of the 5D is that the depth of field is so shallow. The 7D's chip is almost the same size as Academy 4-perf film, and you have those same DOF characteristics. It's easier to get a longer DOF when you need it. With the 5D I'll have to go up in ISO in some cases, no doubt. I know it's heresy around some people, but there are times where I need a deeper DOF because I don't always have an assistant to follow focus for me. I can ride focus myself to a degree but it's not as reliable.

I'm not knocking the 5D here--hell, I'm getting one and it'll be here tomorrow. I'm just pointing out what I see as disadvantages and advantages. As far as image quality, the 5D has a bit of an edge, but it really doesn't show up until you start pushing the limits (a la the Zacuto tests). I wouldn't have considered the 5D if I weren't such a lenswhore and really want to use high quality primes.

Another 5D advantage for me is that I can get a Juicedlink and shoot single system sound again, now that it has manual control over audio. I never thought about that until this morning. I don't plan on doing that, but I can see some upcoming shoots with lots of short interviews I'll be shooting without a soundman, and that will save me some time. It's not the editing or syncing time that's a drag when shooting double system, it's the organizing...keeping track of which audio clips go with which video clips. If I don't slate the stuff, I can easily get lost in editing.

To wrap up this long rambling post, I can say that the 7D has been bullet-proof for me and overall I think it is a better design than the 5DMKII and for most uses more suitable for video production. The 5DMKII has the edge if you want to use certain lenses. Compare the 17-55 to, say, the f1.4 35mm L lens or the Zeiss ZE 35mm and you can see why I'm doing what I'm doing. When I first got into HDSLR video, I commented to several people that it's all about lenses again. The more I got into it, the more true that became for me.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Bill,

You've come to the exact same conclusions as I have: the 5D2 gives more options for a full set of primes and for one-man productions, recording into the camera is simpler. The picture quality might be slightly better, but the difference is slight. Based on posts from around the world, the 5D2 is less prone to overheating. Other than that, the 7D is a heck of a cinema camera...

* Lower price
* HD over HDMI (the main feature that I wish were in the 5D2)
* Ergonomics (video switch, smaller size, possibly more weather proof)
* Same DOF as Super 35.

BTW, Tramm recently sent out a one year anniversary e-mail on the Magic Lantern mailing list. He's been busy with other projects and he's considering an ML-lite release for the latest Canon 2.0.7 firmware on the 5D2. The idea is that you put it on your card, it self boots, it puts the camera into a clean audio mode with live meters and monitoring and that's it. Aside from pre-loading it on the card, it would be completely transparent. In my tests, the audio quality with ML is clearly superior to that with Canon's manual audio control. Live monitoring with meters and headphones at the recorder is the way to go.

For solo shooting, I much prefer going into the camera. I recorded over 70 people saying their names recently using a Tascam DR-100. I messed up three recordings: on one I zigged when I should have zagged and got the recorder and camera recording modes out of sync. On the two others, the battery went low and recording stopped. In both cases, I was framing and working with the talent, so I couldn't focus on the recorder until the take was done. By contrast, when solo recording into the camera, I've never missed an audio take.

Enjoy your 5D2 and the new lenses!

[Bill Pryor]

Interesting that the ML audio is cleaner. I'll have to try that. But, don't you need a Juicedlink or Beachtek in order to monitor?

Only problem I've had with the Zoom H4N is that it takes two button pushes to actually record. First push puts it into get ready mode, press again to begin recording. That's jumped up and bit me a couple of times, fortunately I caught it in time. What I've tried to do is develop the habit of starting the recorder first, then the camera (just as you do in film), and then when I stop, I stop the camera, hit the stop button on the recorder, and then hit the record button once so it's ready to go. Then for the next take when I hit record it actually records. But getting in a hurry, it's difficult to always be on top of that. In an ideal world I'd always have a soundman, but my world is more often not ideal.

So, even though single system sound didn't figure into my decision at all (in fact, I forgot about it till after I ordered) I'll be glad to get it. I also ordered the new Hoodman Cine Kit Pro which has the 3X magnifier on the eyepiece. My old IDCphotography.com Hoodman mod would have to be re-modified to fit the 5D. The new Hoodman with the Hoodcrane is 3-way adjustable to work on any HDSLR. $209. Hoodman has them in stock but B&H is still on order. I had got the 3X magnifier for my old one, and it's very nice--enough to help with focus but not too much.

[Jon Fairhurst]

With ML, you can monitor from the camera. You will need the right wiring for the TRRS 1/8" plug. The simplest way is to use the AV cable that comes with the camera and hook up a string of Radio Shack connectors to connect the TRS headphone plug to the RCA plugs. Depending on the sensitivity of your headphones (and ears), you might want a Boostaroo headphone amp.

Here's some info on custom 5D to headphone cables...
juicedLink: Cables: 1) Canon 5D MarkII, 2) Pana Lumix GH1

With ML and a juicedLink DT454, the noise is down near the 16-bit limit. Some people use a 25dB pad from the H4n headphone output to drive the camera mic input. That should work, but I don't know that it would be as clean. Headphone amps are often at the bottom of the food chain.

[Bill Pryor]

I'll check that out. Camera arrives tomorrow.

On another note, I seem to recall it was you, though maybe not, who posted a warning about the Nikkor 2.8 24mm lens with the extra long flange segment that sticks out so far it might hit the 5D/7D mirror. If it was you, I'm glad you mentioned it because I might not have noticed before attaching the lens. As it is, I did some measuring and found that if the flange did not impact the mirror, it would be way too close for comfort.

So, I've been cursing that flange for some months now. Then suddenly an overly obvious thought occurred to me: My older daughter is a jeweler. Jewelers have tools that grind and cut very hard objects that cost a lot more than my lens. I bet she could perform a flance circumcision easily on that lens.

She did it today, and the lens is now perfect. She ground it off perfectly smooth, perfectly even with the base flange. Covered everything with masking tape so there are no metal particles on the rear element. The only way you can tell the flange extension was there is because you see a shiny aluminum edge. She said to get some black nail polish (like female vampires and some teenage girls with blue hair hanging out at malls wear) and cover the shiny part in case there's the possibility of reflection.

So, if anybody else has that lens and wants it for your wide angle on a Canon--find yourself a jeweler.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Yeah, that was me. Before I had bought my lenses, I borrowed a Nikon AF 24/2.8, an 85/1.8, and a 100/2.8 Macro. Like you, I found that the 24/2.8 was a close shave.

[Liam Hall]

Having shot for the last five weeks with both cameras, including a week shooting royalty in the African Bush, my real-world advice is, get the 7D.

[Charles Papert]

For me the solution to "7D or 5D" was to go the path less travelled; I got the 1D.

All of the advantages of the dual processor of the 7D; a sensor that fits between the other two in size and (for me), way superior low light capability. What is interesting to me is that a $5000 camera is now considered super-expensive, when just a few years ago that is what some 1/3" cameras cost (especially if you factored in a 35mm lens adaptor). It's all about relative costs--the 5D and especially the 7D are so inexpensive for what they do that they make the 1D look pricey. As far as weight, I never use it in a barebones still camera configuration, so it's still light as far as I'm concerned.

So yes, I'm very happy with it and I like that it is a "barely discovered" gem, which has scored me a few gigs due to its exotic nature! (not really--more like I've pitched it on its ability to shoot in amazingly low light).

[Liam Hall]

I think many of us see the 7D/5D as a stop gap until dedicated large sensor cameras are released. Certainly, I'll go the 1D route if I get a similar series of gigs like I just have. Indeed, having seen what a young Getty photographer was capturing at ISO 4000 it's a no-brainer...

[Bill Pryor]

The nice thing about the Canons is that, assuming you get all "full frame" lenses, you can take them with you if you go from one camera to the other. I've heard that with the 1DMKIV you can shoot in a dust storm and then in the rain and be OK. It's built like a tank and water/weather resistant. I didn't want to spend that much money now. My main issue is the ability to use my older lenses and get wide angles out of the wide angles. What is the crop factor of the APS-H? .3? I know it's a really ideal size chip. I think it's the same resolution as the 7D, isn't it? But spread out in a bigger chip for incredible low light possibilities. Who needs lights--hell, get the candles!

[Keith Moreau]

My opinion: Overall, the 5D with the newest firmware, has just a couple of features missing from the 7D I really like: Histogram when in 'video' mode (not recording, but prior to recording), and built-in manual audio level. The ergonomics of the 'live video' 'video on' button on the 7D are not that big of a deal for me. The big 'set' button to turn on video on the 5D is actually as convenient as the video button on the 7D. The 1D MkIV has an even weirder way to start video, a tiny EfL switch next to the shutter switch. Got used to it after a while but I thought it was a pain. If the live out on the 5D was HD, it would win hands down, I think. The LCD on the 7D, for me is just a bit more accurate, contrast-wise, than the 5D.

I started with the 7D, but as I've gotten more used to the 5D, I like it a lot too, and I miss things more when I go use the 7D from the 5D than vice versa. Today I was shooting outside with a 7D and a 24-105mm F/4 L, which was more than enough shallow DOF. Still, a couple times I really wished I had the live histogram to make sure I was getting good exposure, even through the Z-Finder Pro, it's sometimes hard to tell.

I really liked the 1D Mk IV, but couldn't justify keeping it or having 3 DSLRs. Plus I just got the 'el cheapo' Panasonic GH1 - with hacked firmware and higher bitrate it's the 'sleeper' in the crowd of DSLRs. If the Canons had anywhere near as good swivel LCDs or viewfinder resolution as the Panasonic GH1, there'd be no need for a whole cottage industry built around trying to be able to focus with these Canon DSLRS.

I also think that very soon we're going to have something from Panasonic or Nikon that will hope to be a Canon DSLR killer, and it will probably be in the sub $5,000 range.

[Jon Braeley]

The 7D and 5D both got a boost recently when RED announced yet another delay to the Scarlett release - in fact it is llkely a Spring 2011 release now.
I know a number of future Scarlett owners no longer sitting on the fence and buying Canons. I can see this market really heating up by the end of year and I would not be surprised if Sony enter the DSLR size market. The first one to produce raw or uncompressed will be the leader.

[Liam Hall]

Spring 2011 for Scarlet? You may be right, but I doubt it.

Apart from already announced cameras from Sony and Panasonic, Canon are announcing a new vDSLR in July - one that's been tuned for video. How tuned is another matter...

[Jon Fairhurst]

The more I shoot with the 5D2, the less I care about add on features and form factor. By treating it like a film cam, about all I really care about is light in, images out.

So, for me, my next camera upgrade will need to really win on the image side of things. Less aliasing, less jello, higher bit depth (raw or not), and faster frame rates will be the things I will look for. Bells and whistles and a video-shaped body? Not so much...