Editing 550D footage

Peter D. Parker · March 11th, 2010, 04:50 AM

Thanks Stephen, that's the first time I've seen a workflow for CS3, everyone seems to be using CS4.

I don't have neoscene but I do have ProCoder3.

Can you detail the settings for output from neoscene and I can have a look and see if ProCoder has the same outputs.

I don't want to upgrade to Prem CS4 as my SC3 system with Matrox is working great.

Thanks again
Peter

Fergus Anderson · March 11th, 2010, 06:28 AM

Thanks Stephen

I use Vegas but wonder if you can drop the native mov files onto the timeline and render/export the timeline to tape? This skips the transcode / neoscene step.

Stephen Gradin · March 11th, 2010, 09:03 PM

I contacted Cineform via e-mail a couple of weeks ago and got 90% confirmation that Neoscene will transcode T2i footage to work with Premiere CS3 (they should have camera by now for testing) since it is very similar to 7D and they support that camera for CS3. I am not familiar with Procoder 3 but if I had it, I would check with Grass Valley to see if they support transcoding 7D and/or T2i for use with Premiere CS3. I know a Vegas user who says he has to use Cineform Neoscene to do transcode from .mov to .avi, due to colorspace from DSLR not being right for Vegas. Since I use Premiere CS3 with Matrox RT.X2 and do not want to upgrade, I intend on getting Neoscene since it is so cheap (once I get T2i camera). You can get free software trial on Cineform website for a few days if you want to test it out. Once I get camera and software, I will shoot some footage and test my T2i workflow for CS3 and Matrox RT.X2. I'll post my results at that time.

Peter D. Parker · March 12th, 2010, 06:47 AM

Stephen (and others) thanks very much for the feed back. I was hoping to use ProCoder so I'll give them an e-mail, otherwise I await with baited breath for your results !!

Peter

Stan Chase · March 13th, 2010, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus Anderson

I use Vegas but wonder if you can drop the native mov files onto the timeline and render/export the timeline to tape? This skips the transcode / neoscene step.

Fergus, I don't believe Vegas has native support for h.264 mov's. The editors I know that use it transcode with Neoscene or Streamclip before editing. I'm looking into Edius Neo 2.5, as it supports Canon mov's without transcoding. Adobe's Premiere Pro CS5 is supposed to support Canon and is nearing release. In the meantime, I plug away with ZoomBrowser EX. :(

Jon Fairhurst · March 13th, 2010, 01:57 AM

Vegas has native h.264 support, but it's slow. If you just drop a MOV on the timeline, it uses Quicktime to decode. The better option is to open each clip in QT, and export to an M4V without re-encoding. It's just a re-wrap, so it only takes a couple seconds.

The reason to do this is that QT messes up the gamma in eight bit space. This ends up skipping some bit codes and doubling others. You risk banding problems. With the rewrap, the original bit codes are preserved.

You can reduce the preview resolution and preview to RAM to check your edit points. It's really frustratingly slow, but it works and the end result can be great.

But, if you value your time, just part with the $100 and get Neoscene. ;)

Mike Calla · March 13th, 2010, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Boyko

I know that Vegas handles the 7D files natively, and I think they're the same codec.

no, 7d files will halt Vegas on all the but the best workstations.

On Vegas use 7D via Cineform.

Michael Liebergot · March 13th, 2010, 07:54 AM

H.264 is too highly compressed to edit naively, except on the fastest of workstations. And only then you won;t have much latitude for doing more complex edits or even color correction.

Best to transcode to an intermediate codec such as Cineform or ProRes, then edit to your hearts content.

I edit on Vegas on the PC side and FCP on the MAC side. In both instances I transcode to an intermediate to edit with, as I'm not just doing simple cuts, but color grading and sometimes working with a few composite layers.

Jon Fairhurst · March 13th, 2010, 10:41 AM

You can do color correction on the native files at high resolution, but don't expect to be able to play them. You can work with a single frame though.

When I first got the 5D2 in 2008, NeoScene didn't yet work on 5D2 files, so we edited natively. In fact, we didn't know about the re-wrap method at that time, so our blacks and whites were all clipped due to the older version of Quicktime.

The formula was to color correct single frames at high res and to review the edit points at low res with either a proxy or RAM preview. It's like driving while only opening your eyes for a few seconds at a time. Finally, you cross your fingers, render, and then see what you got wrong. It got the job done though, and if you use the rewrap method, the quality was good and straight from original footage to the final render.

NeoScene isn't only good to speed up editing. It also enables Vegas to encode intermediates. I find this to be important if you will bounce over to After Effects, and if you want to do lots of layering. I find that Vegas will crash on rendering if you have too many resources on the timeline. (Always clear unused media from the project before saving and rendering.) If the job is really big, I need to divide things up. Being able to render to an intermediate 1080p file is excellent. I also render out to a Cineform master at the end. From there, I can render to the delivery formats.

Of all the money I've spent on video stuff, Cineform has probably delivered the most productivity improvement per dollar.

Jon Rule · March 14th, 2010, 11:33 AM

How does it compare to AVCHD on the timelime?

Colin Rowe · March 14th, 2010, 03:55 PM

H264 is AVCHD

Ryan Puno · March 15th, 2010, 04:58 PM

Colin, I tried to export them as you've mentioned (Mpeg4) but I noticed I still need to render them again in FCP. I also tried exporting the files in DV and no need to render except for the audio. Is there anything I missed? Is Mpeg4 better than DV? A newbie here.

Colin Rowe · March 15th, 2010, 05:52 PM

Hey Ryan, check this out Apple - Support - Discussions - Tutorial: Using MPEG Streamclip with ...

Stephen Gradin · March 18th, 2010, 04:23 PM

An update for CS3 users who have Matrox RT.X2: I got test footage from T2i from a friend a few days ago. I downloaded Neo Scene (free trial) and converted some of the clips from .mov to .avi, a pretty simple process. I used Premiere CS3 1920X1080 preset that I created from scratch, based on XDCAM EX HQ 60i preset but using Progressive setting to import footage, then exported to HDV tape. This works fine if you want to archive footage on HDV tape, just takes awhile. You can then at anytime import footage for use with Matrox RT.X2 and edit in HDV in real time. If project will be edited later, this is a safe way to go.

A quicker solution for those ready to edit is to just take the Neo Scene 1920X1080 clips and drop them into a Matrox RT.X2 1440X1080 HDV timeline. Then, simply export to Movie, using Matrox 1440X1080 encoder. Don't bother rendering the clips, just a waste of time. Render will occur during export and will be quicker than first doing render and then doing export.

Example: You have half hour of Canon files to convert. First, import from SDHC memory card to media drive, should take less than real time, depending on speed of card and computer. Second, use Neo Scene to convert files, per above, again should take less than real time, depending on system. Third, import .avi Neo Scene files into Matrox HDV project, line up on timeline, clean up shots so you are just converting the good takes, then export to movie, per above. This last step will take the longest, probably double real time. Total time to convert half hour of footage? Probably 2 hours more or less, depending on system. However, once you import movie back into Matrox project, you are now in real time editing mode.

This is my intended workflow, at least for the next year or so. Once CS5 arrives and the bugs are worked out, I'm sure that will work better, but at a much, much higher cost than keeping CS3 with Matrox RT.X2.

Hale Nanthan · March 18th, 2010, 07:44 PM

You won't want to edit with Native Canon EOS MOV files, most CPU's bottleneck when scrubbing through these files on a timeline. It's very CPU intensive and not really meant for editing. Do you have access to Adobe Media Encoder? If so that'll help you to convert your files to another friendlier format.

If you don't mind spending $129, then look into Cineform Neoscene. You'd actually be upgrading the color sampling since the 7D records 4:1:1.

Quality won't improve but it's better to work with and it's rock solid, small, easy to install and batch convert. Powerful little program. I used to use it all the time when working with Premiere Pro, but I'm now back to Pavtube HD converter which converts the MOV files on import. Only $35, it does what I want & at a reasonable price.

How to convert HD MOV, MTS, TOD to be editable for Magix Movie Edit Pro 14?

I hope it will be of great help for you
hale

March 11th, 2010, 09:03 PM	#18
Stephen Gradin Contributor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nottingham, MD Posts: 66	I contacted Cineform via e-mail a couple of weeks ago and got 90% confirmation that Neoscene will transcode T2i footage to work with Premiere CS3 (they should have camera by now for testing) since it is very similar to 7D and they support that camera for CS3. I am not familiar with Procoder 3 but if I had it, I would check with Grass Valley to see if they support transcoding 7D and/or T2i for use with Premiere CS3. I know a Vegas user who says he has to use Cineform Neoscene to do transcode from .mov to .avi, due to colorspace from DSLR not being right for Vegas. Since I use Premiere CS3 with Matrox RT.X2 and do not want to upgrade, I intend on getting Neoscene since it is so cheap (once I get T2i camera). You can get free software trial on Cineform website for a few days if you want to test it out. Once I get camera and software, I will shoot some footage and test my T2i workflow for CS3 and Matrox RT.X2. I'll post my results at that time. __________________ Stephen Gradin Dockside Video Productions

March 13th, 2010, 01:57 AM	#21
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Vegas has native h.264 support, but it's slow. If you just drop a MOV on the timeline, it uses Quicktime to decode. The better option is to open each clip in QT, and export to an M4V without re-encoding. It's just a re-wrap, so it only takes a couple seconds. The reason to do this is that QT messes up the gamma in eight bit space. This ends up skipping some bit codes and doubling others. You risk banding problems. With the rewrap, the original bit codes are preserved. You can reduce the preview resolution and preview to RAM to check your edit points. It's really frustratingly slow, but it works and the end result can be great. But, if you value your time, just part with the $100 and get Neoscene. ;) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 13th, 2010, 07:54 AM	#23
Michael Liebergot Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,505	H.264 is too highly compressed to edit naively, except on the fastest of workstations. And only then you won;t have much latitude for doing more complex edits or even color correction. Best to transcode to an intermediate codec such as Cineform or ProRes, then edit to your hearts content. I edit on Vegas on the PC side and FCP on the MAC side. In both instances I transcode to an intermediate to edit with, as I'm not just doing simple cuts, but color grading and sometimes working with a few composite layers. __________________ Michael www.lvpvideo.com

March 13th, 2010, 10:41 AM	#24
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	You can do color correction on the native files at high resolution, but don't expect to be able to play them. You can work with a single frame though. When I first got the 5D2 in 2008, NeoScene didn't yet work on 5D2 files, so we edited natively. In fact, we didn't know about the re-wrap method at that time, so our blacks and whites were all clipped due to the older version of Quicktime. The formula was to color correct single frames at high res and to review the edit points at low res with either a proxy or RAM preview. It's like driving while only opening your eyes for a few seconds at a time. Finally, you cross your fingers, render, and then see what you got wrong. It got the job done though, and if you use the rewrap method, the quality was good and straight from original footage to the final render. NeoScene isn't only good to speed up editing. It also enables Vegas to encode intermediates. I find this to be important if you will bounce over to After Effects, and if you want to do lots of layering. I find that Vegas will crash on rendering if you have too many resources on the timeline. (Always clear unused media from the project before saving and rendering.) If the job is really big, I need to divide things up. Being able to render to an intermediate 1080p file is excellent. I also render out to a Cineform master at the end. From there, I can render to the delivery formats. Of all the money I've spent on video stuff, Cineform has probably delivered the most productivity improvement per dollar. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 14th, 2010, 03:55 PM	#26
Colin Rowe Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 793	H264 is AVCHD __________________ Colin

March 11th, 2010, 04:50 AM	#16
Peter D. Parker Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Preston England Posts: 147	Thanks Stephen, that's the first time I've seen a workflow for CS3, everyone seems to be using CS4. I don't have neoscene but I do have ProCoder3. Can you detail the settings for output from neoscene and I can have a look and see if ProCoder has the same outputs. I don't want to upgrade to Prem CS4 as my SC3 system with Matrox is working great. Thanks again Peter

March 11th, 2010, 06:28 AM	#17
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Thanks Stephen I use Vegas but wonder if you can drop the native mov files onto the timeline and render/export the timeline to tape? This skips the transcode / neoscene step.

March 12th, 2010, 06:47 AM	#19
Peter D. Parker Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Preston England Posts: 147	Stephen (and others) thanks very much for the feed back. I was hoping to use ProCoder so I'll give them an e-mail, otherwise I await with baited breath for your results !! Peter

March 14th, 2010, 11:33 AM	#25
Jon Rule Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK Posts: 37	How does it compare to AVCHD on the timelime?

March 15th, 2010, 04:58 PM	#27
Ryan Puno Tourist Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Philippines Posts: 1	Colin, I tried to export them as you've mentioned (Mpeg4) but I noticed I still need to render them again in FCP. I also tried exporting the files in DV and no need to render except for the audio. Is there anything I missed? Is Mpeg4 better than DV? A newbie here.

March 15th, 2010, 05:52 PM	#28
Colin Rowe Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 793	Hey Ryan, check this out Apple - Support - Discussions - Tutorial: Using MPEG Streamclip with ... __________________ Colin

March 18th, 2010, 04:23 PM	#29
Stephen Gradin Contributor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nottingham, MD Posts: 66	An update for CS3 users who have Matrox RT.X2: I got test footage from T2i from a friend a few days ago. I downloaded Neo Scene (free trial) and converted some of the clips from .mov to .avi, a pretty simple process. I used Premiere CS3 1920X1080 preset that I created from scratch, based on XDCAM EX HQ 60i preset but using Progressive setting to import footage, then exported to HDV tape. This works fine if you want to archive footage on HDV tape, just takes awhile. You can then at anytime import footage for use with Matrox RT.X2 and edit in HDV in real time. If project will be edited later, this is a safe way to go. A quicker solution for those ready to edit is to just take the Neo Scene 1920X1080 clips and drop them into a Matrox RT.X2 1440X1080 HDV timeline. Then, simply export to Movie, using Matrox 1440X1080 encoder. Don't bother rendering the clips, just a waste of time. Render will occur during export and will be quicker than first doing render and then doing export. Example: You have half hour of Canon files to convert. First, import from SDHC memory card to media drive, should take less than real time, depending on speed of card and computer. Second, use Neo Scene to convert files, per above, again should take less than real time, depending on system. Third, import .avi Neo Scene files into Matrox HDV project, line up on timeline, clean up shots so you are just converting the good takes, then export to movie, per above. This last step will take the longest, probably double real time. Total time to convert half hour of footage? Probably 2 hours more or less, depending on system. However, once you import movie back into Matrox project, you are now in real time editing mode. This is my intended workflow, at least for the next year or so. Once CS5 arrives and the bugs are worked out, I'm sure that will work better, but at a much, much higher cost than keeping CS3 with Matrox RT.X2. __________________ Stephen Gradin Dockside Video Productions

March 18th, 2010, 07:44 PM	#30
Hale Nanthan Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: London UK Posts: 33	You won't want to edit with Native Canon EOS MOV files, most CPU's bottleneck when scrubbing through these files on a timeline. It's very CPU intensive and not really meant for editing. Do you have access to Adobe Media Encoder? If so that'll help you to convert your files to another friendlier format. If you don't mind spending $129, then look into Cineform Neoscene. You'd actually be upgrading the color sampling since the 7D records 4:1:1. Quality won't improve but it's better to work with and it's rock solid, small, easy to install and batch convert. Powerful little program. I used to use it all the time when working with Premiere Pro, but I'm now back to Pavtube HD converter which converts the MOV files on import. Only $35, it does what I want & at a reasonable price. How to convert HD MOV, MTS, TOD to be editable for Magix Movie Edit Pro 14? I hope it will be of great help for you hale