7D killed the A1... for me

Brian Brown · January 25th, 2010, 01:27 AM

I do long-ish form corporate stuff, and have recently bought a 7D to use alongside my A1. After A/B testing, though, I can hardly shoot w/ the A1 anymore. This week, I have a series of interviews for a big production that I'm going to shoot on the 7D with the A1 for sync sound and "backup". My goal is NOT to use the visuals from the A1 at all, but I'll have that choice in post.

Locked-down and with controlled lighting, the 7D is really no trouble at all in these environments. Nobody truly talks for 12-minutes at a time, where I can't break it up. And my clients just LOVE the look of the 35mm DOF. I used to have to fuss and dress up a "set", but now I just put a few things in the foreground and then let the background fall away. Lighting seems easier, too, with just a couple of Omnis and a 300w kicker. I don't think I really need the whole softbox and eggcrate I've been budgeting for. Everything just seems more forgivable when foreground and background in a scene is no longer tack sharp and flattened by the 1/3 " sensors.

But I'll HAVE to hang onto my A1 for those times I need to shoot stuff longer than 12-minute clips (events), need run-and-gun shoots where I can't manage the few INCHES of DOF the 7D gives me, or just need to capture something fast and it does NOT have to be pretty.

These things are game-changers, to say the least.

Cheers,
Brian Brown
BrownCow Productions

Simon Denny · January 25th, 2010, 01:34 AM

Why did you get the 7D and not the 5D.

Cheers

A.J. Aguirre · January 25th, 2010, 01:40 AM

Brian, Im glad to hear that someone shares my EXACT reasoning behind not using the A1! the only thing we differ is I dont do events or anything that require more than 12 min so yea

and Simon, I dont know if you meant that question for me or brian, but I chose the 7D because of cause vs. effectiveness, ofcourse everyone knows the 5d is better in low light but I am not willing to pay almost 1K more for it, Also, at the time the 5d did not support 24p, but even though it does now, I would still choose the 7D because the price just seems to be perfect to me! I actually think it is more important to put more money towards amazing lenses rather then shelling out the extra 1K for the 5d, i hope that answers your question

Ger Griffin · January 26th, 2010, 01:47 PM

My 7d footage makes my a1 footage look bad. Simple as that. Paticularly when Im including footage from the 7d in my A1 weddings. I would prefer a consistently inferior image, as in a full wedding shot with the a1, or a consitently superior image, as in a full wedding shot with the 7d.
But to mix them is trouble i feel. And im not trying to intercut shots. I had been trying to tackle particular parts of the day with one or the other, and then having a 'feature'.
But the anticlimax when it goes back to A1 footage is difficult to deal with.

Brian Brown · January 28th, 2010, 09:31 PM

Uh-huh. Guess which is which:
http://www.browncowvideo.com/7DvsA1.jpg

Those are frame grabs of a 1080p shoot, NOT stills (which the 7D would obviously kill at).

Here's the full-production [and I couldn't bear to use any of the footage from my XH-A1 (now known as my over-priced field recorder)].
YouTube - Encore Home Styles Longmont Colorado

Wacharapong Chiowanich · January 28th, 2010, 11:14 PM

Brian, the clothes on the subject in the bottom (assuming to be from the 7D) of the framegrab appears distinctly maroon-ish to me. Did it actually look so in real life or maybe the 7D does suffer from the IR or "near red" problem recording blacks on certain materials?

Brian Brown · January 28th, 2010, 11:55 PM

I do recall that her shirt was blacker than the rendering in the 7D. I did use a Warm Card to alter the skin tones. I'll have to see if I took some still before the WB and if they're maroon-ish too.

Ger Griffin · January 29th, 2010, 09:03 AM

Wow Brian that test speaks volumes eh.
At first i thought you were going to shock us and tell us the first still was the 7d and second the A1 but then i slapped myself and all checked out as i knew it would.

Alain Mayo · January 29th, 2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Brown

Uh-huh. Guess which is which:
http://www.browncowvideo.com/7DvsA1.jpg

Those are frame grabs of a 1080p shoot, NOT stills (which the 7D would obviously kill at).

Here's the full-production [and I couldn't bear to use any of the footage from my XH-A1 (now known as my over-priced field recorder)].
YouTube - Encore Home Styles Longmont Colorado

What lens did you use for your 7d?

Brian Brown · January 29th, 2010, 05:32 PM

The interview was with the Canon 85mm/1.8. The b-roll was w/ the Canon 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS "kit" lens.

Brandon Paschal · February 5th, 2010, 09:06 PM

All,

I've spent a considerable amount of time (and resources) getting 2 A1s, the associated mics, and the cinevate 35mm adapter. It certainly is cumbersome, but the HDV workflow I have gotten use to.

Can you all help me through any considerations I may be missing if I think about going toward going the DSLR route?

1. Is there capability to input comparable audio?
2. Is the workflow much more challenging w/ the DSLR (I go straight from A1's tape (or DTE recorder) to FCP and edit?
3. How do you all manage the 12 min limitations (I do weddings every now and then as well)?

The depth of field is awesome, and the images I see look great. I'm really interested in your thoughts/suggestions!!

--Brandon

Jon Fairhurst · February 5th, 2010, 11:03 PM

Audio:

For audio, I recommend the juicedLink CX231 (phantom) or CX211 (no phantom) preamp, a 5D2, and Magic Lantern firmware (to set a fixed gain in the camera). With the 7D or 1D4 (or the 5D2 if you don't want to use ML), you can add on the DN101 to fool the camera into disabling the auto-gain-control. I received my DN101, but haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces yet...

Workflow:

You can edit directly, but the performance will be bad. It's best to transcode to Cineform or ProRes first. On a fast machine, the transcoding is in real time, so if you transcode from the card to the hard drive, it's no slower than ingesting an HDV tape.

12 minute limit:

I do narrative and never record close to 12 minutes at a time.

That said, you can stop and start recordings in a second or two, and you can record as many 12 minute clips on a card as you can fit. If you have multiple cams, you can stagger recordings. If you record audio externally, you can roll the audio continuously and insert some b-roll over the video gap.

Personally, if I did weddings, I'd ask if people wanted a documentary of the wedding, or a romantic impression video. If they want a documentary, make sure to have a standard video camera. If you use a DvSLR as well, keep the aperture narrow and use it as b-roll. If they want a romantic impression, leave the standard camera at home, do your best with the DvSLR (or two), run a wide aperture, and shoot lots of out of focus effects.

DvSLRs do great if you use them to their strengths.

Brian Brown · February 6th, 2010, 01:18 AM

Great points, Jon. I'll add a few more...

I shot a 10.5 minute interview today w/ my 7D that was pushing the limit a bit. It was, by far, the longest take I've made so far in the 7-8 shoots I've done w/ the 7D, but I was ready to tell the talent to take a little break. Should save me time in the long-run... "yup, gotta stop here. I think I have enough. You were great!" A one-hour tape doesn't give me that. ;-)

At 90 feet per minute, 35mm film has a similar runtime for 1000' reels. So Hollywood has dealt with this limitation forever.

I just ordered the Tascam DR-100 and will do double-sound. 24-bit/48kHz will give quite a bit of headroom... AND flexibility. I can now put the audio closer to the sound source (or sound board) for the few events I shoot. Slating takes isn't too onerous, nor is syching waveforms in post. And now I can run VO sessions or grab some "wild" audio, easily.

Brandon, the DSLR format can be a pain if you're used to a pro video cam. But it can also be liberating in some ways, too. It's this tiny, unassuming, amazing camera. Having both an HDV AND an DSLR will let you do all sorts of amazing things. And not having to mess with that 35mm adapter will have you doing cartwheels, I think.

You can rent a 7D or 5D2 for maybe $60/day and just try it out on a mock shoot (or a REAL one, if you're really brave). Run the sound through your A1, and A/B test the resulting footage.

Cheers,
Brian Brown

Bruce S. Yarock · February 6th, 2010, 02:51 AM

Brandon,
I do all types of jobs, including a wedding or two each month. I have 2 A1's, one permanently with the letus xetreme. I also have an H1.

I bought my 7d a couple of months ago, and like everyone else, am blown away by the dof conrol and image. I've slowly been integrating it into some jobs, and a couple of weddings. I' have my share of out of focus footage.

The 7d is very challenging, especially focus, and there's no way i would get rid of my other cameras right now. When I'm doing a run and gun or non repeatable event, I need , above all to be in focus. I grap my A1 or H1. When I have time to do set up interviews, broll,beauty shots, or time to focus, I'll go with the 7D. I'd like to use it more, but I don't feel comfortable enough for it to be my go to camera.

The audio is a pain until some firmware is available. You're pretty much stuck doing double sound. I've used one of my cameras for the good audio, and also taken advantage of a safety or 2nd cam for the shot. I have a sounddevices 302 and an edirol r-09, but that's more work than one person can handle. the rode video mic is a great deal, and sounds a lot better than the on board 7d mic, when plugged in directly.

For workflow, we have to transcode with neoscene then edit in premiere Cs3.
You need a substantial bit of accessories for the 7d.

I went with:
4 lenses-canon 17-55 2.8, 70-200 2.8 ( both is), Tokina 11-16 2.8 and a canon 50mm 1.4.
Zacuti Z finder
Rails ( already have a ffocus)
Singh Ray adjustable nd filter ( for keeping open iris oiut side- shallow dof in sunlight)
Rode video mic.
I alrady have a DV multirig pro, which I've adapted for shoulder support use.
I had been wanting the glidetrack which i just got, and it's fantastic with the 7d.

In conclusion, I'm very comfortable using the 7d in controlled situations, but at jobs where I need to be fast and get good focus, I'm not comfortable yet,
Bruce Yarock

Michiel van Baasbank · February 6th, 2010, 03:15 AM

Bruce, do you plug in the Rode Videomic directly into the 7D and get acceptable sound? You don't use an external audiorecorder like the Zoom or Tascam, nor a Juicedlink pre-amp?

January 28th, 2010, 09:31 PM	#20
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Some A/B frame grabs Uh-huh. Guess which is which: http://www.browncowvideo.com/7DvsA1.jpg Those are frame grabs of a 1080p shoot, NOT stills (which the 7D would obviously kill at). Here's the full-production [and I couldn't bear to use any of the footage from my XH-A1 (now known as my over-priced field recorder)]. YouTube - Encore Home Styles Longmont Colorado

February 5th, 2010, 09:06 PM	#26
Brandon Paschal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 77	A1 User ... looking into getting into the DSLR game ... All, I've spent a considerable amount of time (and resources) getting 2 A1s, the associated mics, and the cinevate 35mm adapter. It certainly is cumbersome, but the HDV workflow I have gotten use to. Can you all help me through any considerations I may be missing if I think about going toward going the DSLR route? 1. Is there capability to input comparable audio? 2. Is the workflow much more challenging w/ the DSLR (I go straight from A1's tape (or DTE recorder) to FCP and edit? 3. How do you all manage the 12 min limitations (I do weddings every now and then as well)? The depth of field is awesome, and the images I see look great. I'm really interested in your thoughts/suggestions!! --Brandon __________________ p-films.com. Canon T2i f2.8 17-55, f1.4 50mm, Cool Lights LEDs

February 5th, 2010, 11:03 PM	#27
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Audio: For audio, I recommend the juicedLink CX231 (phantom) or CX211 (no phantom) preamp, a 5D2, and Magic Lantern firmware (to set a fixed gain in the camera). With the 7D or 1D4 (or the 5D2 if you don't want to use ML), you can add on the DN101 to fool the camera into disabling the auto-gain-control. I received my DN101, but haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces yet... Workflow: You can edit directly, but the performance will be bad. It's best to transcode to Cineform or ProRes first. On a fast machine, the transcoding is in real time, so if you transcode from the card to the hard drive, it's no slower than ingesting an HDV tape. 12 minute limit: I do narrative and never record close to 12 minutes at a time. That said, you can stop and start recordings in a second or two, and you can record as many 12 minute clips on a card as you can fit. If you have multiple cams, you can stagger recordings. If you record audio externally, you can roll the audio continuously and insert some b-roll over the video gap. Personally, if I did weddings, I'd ask if people wanted a documentary of the wedding, or a romantic impression video. If they want a documentary, make sure to have a standard video camera. If you use a DvSLR as well, keep the aperture narrow and use it as b-roll. If they want a romantic impression, leave the standard camera at home, do your best with the DvSLR (or two), run a wide aperture, and shoot lots of out of focus effects. DvSLRs do great if you use them to their strengths. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

January 25th, 2010, 01:27 AM	#16
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	I do long-ish form corporate stuff, and have recently bought a 7D to use alongside my A1. After A/B testing, though, I can hardly shoot w/ the A1 anymore. This week, I have a series of interviews for a big production that I'm going to shoot on the 7D with the A1 for sync sound and "backup". My goal is NOT to use the visuals from the A1 at all, but I'll have that choice in post. Locked-down and with controlled lighting, the 7D is really no trouble at all in these environments. Nobody truly talks for 12-minutes at a time, where I can't break it up. And my clients just LOVE the look of the 35mm DOF. I used to have to fuss and dress up a "set", but now I just put a few things in the foreground and then let the background fall away. Lighting seems easier, too, with just a couple of Omnis and a 300w kicker. I don't think I really need the whole softbox and eggcrate I've been budgeting for. Everything just seems more forgivable when foreground and background in a scene is no longer tack sharp and flattened by the 1/3 " sensors. But I'll HAVE to hang onto my A1 for those times I need to shoot stuff longer than 12-minute clips (events), need run-and-gun shoots where I can't manage the few INCHES of DOF the 7D gives me, or just need to capture something fast and it does NOT have to be pretty. These things are game-changers, to say the least. Cheers, Brian Brown BrownCow Productions

January 25th, 2010, 01:34 AM	#17
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Why did you get the 7D and not the 5D. Cheers

January 25th, 2010, 01:40 AM	#18
A.J. Aguirre Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Waco, Tx Posts: 72	Brian, Im glad to hear that someone shares my EXACT reasoning behind not using the A1! the only thing we differ is I dont do events or anything that require more than 12 min so yea and Simon, I dont know if you meant that question for me or brian, but I chose the 7D because of cause vs. effectiveness, ofcourse everyone knows the 5d is better in low light but I am not willing to pay almost 1K more for it, Also, at the time the 5d did not support 24p, but even though it does now, I would still choose the 7D because the price just seems to be perfect to me! I actually think it is more important to put more money towards amazing lenses rather then shelling out the extra 1K for the 5d, i hope that answers your question

January 26th, 2010, 01:47 PM	#19
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	My 7d footage makes my a1 footage look bad. Simple as that. Paticularly when Im including footage from the 7d in my A1 weddings. I would prefer a consistently inferior image, as in a full wedding shot with the a1, or a consitently superior image, as in a full wedding shot with the 7d. But to mix them is trouble i feel. And im not trying to intercut shots. I had been trying to tackle particular parts of the day with one or the other, and then having a 'feature'. But the anticlimax when it goes back to A1 footage is difficult to deal with.

January 28th, 2010, 11:14 PM	#21
Wacharapong Chiowanich Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 400	Brian, the clothes on the subject in the bottom (assuming to be from the 7D) of the framegrab appears distinctly maroon-ish to me. Did it actually look so in real life or maybe the 7D does suffer from the IR or "near red" problem recording blacks on certain materials?

January 28th, 2010, 11:55 PM	#22
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	I do recall that her shirt was blacker than the rendering in the 7D. I did use a Warm Card to alter the skin tones. I'll have to see if I took some still before the WB and if they're maroon-ish too.

January 29th, 2010, 09:03 AM	#23
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	Wow Brian that test speaks volumes eh. At first i thought you were going to shock us and tell us the first still was the 7d and second the A1 but then i slapped myself and all checked out as i knew it would.

January 29th, 2010, 05:32 PM	#25
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	The interview was with the Canon 85mm/1.8. The b-roll was w/ the Canon 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS "kit" lens.

February 6th, 2010, 01:18 AM	#28
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Great points, Jon. I'll add a few more... I shot a 10.5 minute interview today w/ my 7D that was pushing the limit a bit. It was, by far, the longest take I've made so far in the 7-8 shoots I've done w/ the 7D, but I was ready to tell the talent to take a little break. Should save me time in the long-run... "yup, gotta stop here. I think I have enough. You were great!" A one-hour tape doesn't give me that. ;-) At 90 feet per minute, 35mm film has a similar runtime for 1000' reels. So Hollywood has dealt with this limitation forever. I just ordered the Tascam DR-100 and will do double-sound. 24-bit/48kHz will give quite a bit of headroom... AND flexibility. I can now put the audio closer to the sound source (or sound board) for the few events I shoot. Slating takes isn't too onerous, nor is syching waveforms in post. And now I can run VO sessions or grab some "wild" audio, easily. Brandon, the DSLR format can be a pain if you're used to a pro video cam. But it can also be liberating in some ways, too. It's this tiny, unassuming, amazing camera. Having both an HDV AND an DSLR will let you do all sorts of amazing things. And not having to mess with that 35mm adapter will have you doing cartwheels, I think. You can rent a 7D or 5D2 for maybe $60/day and just try it out on a mock shoot (or a REAL one, if you're really brave). Run the sound through your A1, and A/B test the resulting footage. Cheers, Brian Brown

February 6th, 2010, 02:51 AM	#29
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	Brandon, I do all types of jobs, including a wedding or two each month. I have 2 A1's, one permanently with the letus xetreme. I also have an H1. I bought my 7d a couple of months ago, and like everyone else, am blown away by the dof conrol and image. I've slowly been integrating it into some jobs, and a couple of weddings. I' have my share of out of focus footage. The 7d is very challenging, especially focus, and there's no way i would get rid of my other cameras right now. When I'm doing a run and gun or non repeatable event, I need , above all to be in focus. I grap my A1 or H1. When I have time to do set up interviews, broll,beauty shots, or time to focus, I'll go with the 7D. I'd like to use it more, but I don't feel comfortable enough for it to be my go to camera. The audio is a pain until some firmware is available. You're pretty much stuck doing double sound. I've used one of my cameras for the good audio, and also taken advantage of a safety or 2nd cam for the shot. I have a sounddevices 302 and an edirol r-09, but that's more work than one person can handle. the rode video mic is a great deal, and sounds a lot better than the on board 7d mic, when plugged in directly. For workflow, we have to transcode with neoscene then edit in premiere Cs3. You need a substantial bit of accessories for the 7d. I went with: 4 lenses-canon 17-55 2.8, 70-200 2.8 ( both is), Tokina 11-16 2.8 and a canon 50mm 1.4. Zacuti Z finder Rails ( already have a ffocus) Singh Ray adjustable nd filter ( for keeping open iris oiut side- shallow dof in sunlight) Rode video mic. I alrady have a DV multirig pro, which I've adapted for shoulder support use. I had been wanting the glidetrack which i just got, and it's fantastic with the 7d. In conclusion, I'm very comfortable using the 7d in controlled situations, but at jobs where I need to be fast and get good focus, I'm not comfortable yet, Bruce Yarock

February 6th, 2010, 03:15 AM	#30
Michiel van Baasbank Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 63	Bruce, do you plug in the Rode Videomic directly into the 7D and get acceptable sound? You don't use an external audiorecorder like the Zoom or Tascam, nor a Juicedlink pre-amp?