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December 1st, 2009, 03:20 AM
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#16 | |
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Major Player
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 795
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Quote:
Do a search on DV info before you make your mind up. I read a post yesterday from a wedding photographer saying that he wouldn't be using anything other than his 7D from now onwards because he was so pleased with it. Not everyone is complaining about the challenge to get right focus. The x10 button makes it pretty easy, if you have time to set up your shots.
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December 1st, 2009, 05:21 AM
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#17 | |
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Inner Circle
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 2,853
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Quote:
I think the 7D is up to the tasks you mention, as long as you are aware of the pitfalls that might arise and make sure you get alternative shots to cover them. For example, if one of your key wedding guests was to wear something with a herringbone pattern (a fine repeating high contrast type of appereance) you may have issues with the 7D depending on the focus regime used and so on. Then again, up until the EX1R was launched (and the Tiffen filters for the EX3 and old EX1) wedding videographers were often complaining bitterly about the way the EX1/3 handled blacks (IR contamination resulting in funny browns etc.). No camera is perfect. It's about understanding each ones limitations and strengths and using it in a way where it's strong points shine. As has been stated, the 4GB limit is not really an issue (especially if you have 2 cameras in action) but I'd be a little worried about the overheating issue in your climate at certain times of year (see below, I know it very well!). I think the EX1R would be an easier camera for your intended tasks, ideally supplemented by a 7D (or 5DMkII etc.). But that's just my opinion and I don't do weddings so take that into account. We've seen many good examples already on Vimeo et al (and the camera has only been available for a month or so) so I'm confident it'll do MOST tasks once I've understood exactly how to use it. However, no way would the 7D be my ONLY tool for corporate, I can say that with confidence and some experience, albeit limited experience, with the 7D at present. My EX3 is a perfect tool for 90% of what I do (and has done 100% pretty well up until now!) Thanks for the kind comments about my review. On a personal note, I had several very happy years flying in and out of Porto Alegre, Brazil every other week (from the UK !- when I worked for Solae / DuPont as a scientist) and it was one of my favourite locations to visit with work. I used to stay all the time in the Sheraton, and Mulligans, just up the road was my bar! - I've met so many nice people in your country and city. You have many very beautiful women in that part of Brazil so I'm sure your 7D or EX1R wedding videos will look just great! :-)
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Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production |
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December 1st, 2009, 05:59 PM
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#18 |
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil
Posts: 28
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Thanks for comments, guys!
Michael Yes, I think you're right. I've edited so far tons of weddings plenty of rec'n stop (I didn't figure out - yet - WHY on earth cameran push the rec button on action - to save tape?). I think I can survive with some clips to sync, I get very used to sync... And, yes again. I will have to buy a good mic. Thanks for the comment. Richard Oh, man! You want make me confused. I recently found this treasure chest of forum. The time is short to read everything but there's no other way. Thanks to you I am evaluating again my options. And I grateful for this. Andy Ha, that's funny! I never expected someone to know where Porto Alegre is! Next time you come notify me and I pay you a beer! Everything you posted was registered. I plan to open my own business in 2010's mid. I'm currently work in my business' plan (sorry, I don't know exactly expression in English). I"ll buy a 7D and test it meanwhile. I think I'll be able to shoot some idependent short movies with it. I love movies... I've visited your website and watched yours 3M piece, and I was very inspired. I hope I can make this kind of work in the future. Well, thanks so much. Maybe someday I'll vacation in UK and you can show me some good pub at West Ham. It is where Iron Maiden was born, isn't it? Cheers! |
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December 1st, 2009, 06:56 PM
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#19 | |
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Inner Circle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 2,488
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Quote:
I've been testing a 7D recently and would call the low-light sensitivity adequate but not necessarily ground-breaking. You need a fast lens to get the most from DSLRs and that limits your choice of lenses, especially if you like to have a decent zoom range available. On the plus side, the low-light footage looks cleaner than what I get from my video cameras, so it might be possible to push it further in post - and hence extend the useful range in extreme low-light situations. Bottom line: if you're thinking of jumping into wedding videos with little or no prior experience, start with standard video camera and worry about DSLRs later. There's enough to think about without trying to learn to use cutting-edge technology which is challenging those with many years of experience. |
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December 2nd, 2009, 07:03 PM
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#20 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fayetteville, GA
Posts: 772
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Andy,
I was just sitting down at the computer to compose my own version of my thoughts after about 4 weeks with the 7D. I find your write-up almost exactly what I have encountered. The footage can be stunning, but the shallow DOF makes focusing maddening for a one-man show. I would not recommend this as the primary camera for someone making a living of of real world shoots. For controlled shorts and artistic work it has a place. Because I shoot for a hobby, I can afford to throw out 50% of my work. Right now, I'm probably catching less than 25% of anything that has real motion in an indoor, naturally lit environment. When I go outside in bright sun and can close the aperture down beyond 8, I have a fighting chance, but it's still quite difficult to nail real life in video. I've also found zooming difficult to pull off cleanly, and changes in aperture (either by manual adjustment or a lens with variable aperture through the zoom) to be abrupt, making the footage unusable. I instead have adopted using Auto ISO when I have variable lighting situations. It provides a much smoother lighting adjustment than I can do manually, especially on the run. I have found that when in a hurry Auto ISO does a better job than I can without taking a few test shots/histograms. Interestingly, many of the same things I find challenging are the allure of the camera. As a hobby, the challenge of focus is making me a better videographer. I used to find my XHA1 a challenge to keep focused. I picked one up the other day and it was a cake-walk. It was like hitting a tin can with a shotgun after trying to hit flies with a slingshot! How could you miss? I also love the ability to take great still shots and to switch back and forth between stills and video. After 4 weeks I miss the XHA1's feature set, including 20X zoom L-lens, manual controls, XLR's, ND's..... these were so much more valuable than I realized. There have been a lot of write-ups of the 7D's low light gathering capabilities. And they are somewhat true. I can throw on a 1.4 lens and capture dimly lit rooms if I use noise suppression software to clean things up. I haven't found most of the lower light footage outstanding without noise suppression. I've had two copies of the 7D and both showed noticeable noise anywhere north of 640. In my opinion not very pretty after 1250. Now if you have a wide-to-long zoom, you are probably using f2.8 or worse something like 3.5-5.6. In this case the 7D loses its superior light gathering due to inefficient glass and the A1 @ 1.6 - 2 can actually look very good by comparison. Do I dislike the 7D? Not at all. I actually enjoy it very much - for what it is. For a hobby I prefer it over the A1. I just can't imagine using the 7D as the sole camera for capturing a wedding or any other active one-shot activity. I'll continue to work on my camera skills and maybe some day I'll nail my ability to hit focus at will. Not anywhere close yet! Last edited by Roger Shealy; December 2nd, 2009 at 09:05 PM. |
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December 2nd, 2009, 08:50 PM
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#21 |
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Trustee
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 1,104
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When we evaluate new technology we do so with an eye towards the past. We often make comparisons between cameras, I have seen shots comparing Red footage with 5dMkII with 7D footage for example. Other than to say all that I have seen holds up pretty well, the comparison [although appreciated and fun to watch] don't really mean much.
Plus as Kevin points out the application of the camera is critical. When talking about these comparisons it is important to note what's being compared, for the past year I've been working in a tapeless environment using XDCAM EX1/3's and this workflow made me evaluate and change just about everything we were doing. After a year of doing it I can't ever imagine going back to tape. Sure I could do it, but the creative possibilities that going tapeless presented It's often difficult to express the intangibles that come from going through such an evaluation process. Roger mentions how using the 7D makes it easier to focus his A1, I have mentioned how this camera is forcing me to be a better cinematographer, not simply because of the 7D but more likely I just became accustom to firing up the EX3, white balancing, focusing and pretty much pointing and shooting. I thought I could just use this camera the way I did the EX3 and I'd be making movies in no time. But as anyone who has used the 7D knows, that's not the case. Also, like Roger I can afford to throw out a large percentage of my work, or to put it another way I can afford the time it takes to figure out how some people are getting some incredible results with this camera. It seems that we are taking a tool and trying to use it in ways that it wasn't intended. Its some plastic with a big censor that we can put whatever lens we want on it, you know like a Red. But thats probably where the comparison ends. I'm not going to run out and replace the EX3's with the 7D, but I do think there are ways of using this camera that few of us have figured out yet that could help really take some of our productions up a couple of levels. And for something less of $4K I think that's pretty exciting. Sorry for rambling, my wife went Christmas shopping and left me here with nothing to do... |
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December 2nd, 2009, 09:17 PM
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#22 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 634
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No, that's not rambling, that's a pretty good intepretation on how this cam fits in... I'm pretty sure I'll be getting one on order this month and I am really excited about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts... Ironically, my wife is ALSO out Christmas shopping. Hopefully they're not spending too much $$ !:) :) :)
Jon |
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December 2nd, 2009, 09:49 PM
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#23 |
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Trustee
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 1,104
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Maybe she's getting you a new 7D...
I asked my wife for a new 24mm f/1.4, I'm not allowed to repeat what she said on this forum.... |
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December 2nd, 2009, 10:34 PM
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#24 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fayetteville, GA
Posts: 772
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I thought it might be fun to compare some low light footage frame-grabs taken from the 7D at different ISO's compared to a well-worn XHA1. There are a lot of comments about the low light capabilities of the 7D. With a fast lens, it's pretty good. If you use a zoom lens, say f2.8 on a high quality zoom lens or f3.5 or f5.6 on a cheap kit lens things get messier. Remember, the A1 is always wearing a 20X zoom lens, in this case set at f2.0.
The room had a single overhead fluorescent bulb (13W?) and bounce light from two fluorescent BR30's pointed against a side wall. I took an XHA1 and the 7D and put them side by side. With $99 worth of noise suppression software you can do a lot to equalize 2006 HDV technology to look pretty decent compared to late 2009 DSLR technology. If you go much darker than these conditions, the A1 goes south in a hurry, but the 7D loses a lot of sparkle as well. Note1: I adjusted the A1 footage slightly as always to make the colors and contrast look better (as I always do with it's footage). The 7D footage came straight out of the camera. There's really not much of a point to all of this other than a lot of the great 7D low light footage is being shot with $1,400 f1.2 prime lenses many don't have or want to live with. If you want zoom capability on your 7D, it puts a pretty stiff penalty on light transmission even with good glass. I really like my 7D and replaced my own XHA1 to buy it. For my personal use it was a good trade but it did come with some compromises. Last edited by Roger Shealy; December 3rd, 2009 at 05:51 AM. |
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December 3rd, 2009, 01:25 AM
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#25 |
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Inner Circle
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,290
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Yeah, I'm also a bit skeptical so far about the low light ability of the 7d as compared to the bread and butter 1/3" HDV's. I think you're right, to get noticeable improvement over HDV you need some rocked up primes. 2.8 and above isn't going to make you happy.
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December 3rd, 2009, 07:04 AM
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#26 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fayetteville, GA
Posts: 772
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As a testimony to the 7D in its ideal environment, my son reports that roughly half of the senior projects delivered this quarter at film school were shot on the 7D and have largely replaced the Red and traditional cameras. This is astounding when you consider that to deliver their senior drafts before December, they had to choose and start working with the 7D right as it was being released. They were able to get the DOF and film look with a 7D - buying the camera for less than renting the Red. And the results were very good on less-than-theater sized screens. With time, care, and the ability to repeat, the 7D is quite impressive at a very, very reasonable cost.
In my book the 7D is an incredible artist's camera or a great 2nd or 3rd camera. |
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December 3rd, 2009, 11:07 AM
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#27 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 969
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I think that's about right Roger. It's not the best choice for everyone or for every type of production, but it can be the right choice for both.
Interesting observation about students choosing it over RED. It's a much shorter learning curve for them and not such a strain on their wallet or their back. Students might not find the best way to do something, but they will find the one that is the easiest and allows them the most time in the bar! |
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December 3rd, 2009, 12:56 PM
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#28 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fayetteville, GA
Posts: 772
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Liam,
Agreed on the Red vs 7D. On a budget you can equip a 7D pretty nicely for about $5k and you can use a fast-but-normal computer to process the video. Red, as I understand it, is a great value compared to a $150K production camera but is still pricey for a modest budget production, also requiring more crew and high end post processing power needed that that may not be readily available to a student. Last edited by Roger Shealy; December 3rd, 2009 at 09:04 PM. |
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December 3rd, 2009, 08:19 PM
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#29 |
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Posts: 78
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The 5D and 7D are also great for corporate work. I've now shot a few with both a rented 5D MkII and my own 7D. For the location-centric, fast-paced, limited-space-for-lighting, please-blur-out-the-busy-background world of corporate shooting, the 7D's been a revelation. I've had the best luck when I throw out my video-camera preconceptions; e.g., shooting stills and referring to the histogram for exposure confirmation, using a light meter when setting up lights, shooting double-system audio, color grading in post. I've found these are just DIFFERENT ways of shooting, not worse or better. It's all a tradeoff, but if you have the right attitude going in, it can be fun, fast, lightweight, and return pretty killer imagery. Provided you know what you're in for. ;-)
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designer of media for eyes and ears sound design and field recording at http://www.noisejockey.net/blog |
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December 4th, 2009, 11:01 AM
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#30 |
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Inner Circle
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 2,853
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Just to update this about focussing.
I've done quite a bit this week with the 7D and I'm getting much better at nailing focus using the 5x and 10x quick "Magnify" button on the 7Ds back, top right. This is still a bit too fiddly in run and gun situations but for more sedate stuff it's brilliant now I've got my technique honed to use it quickly. I'm not sure if the 5D MkII has this feature but I'm appreciating it more and more on the 7D. I typically use this feature quite a bit on the EX3. Also, with static subjects where I have more time, I also beginning to love the ability to quickly move around the "white box" (AF Point) on the LCD (using the joystick "Multicontroller") to where I want focus to be and then a quick AF push and the box turns green to confirm focus has been achieved (or if I'm still not happy, a quick fine adjust manually in the expanded view). Then it's just a press of the record button. I'm still not where I need to be with the 7D (yet!) but things are looking good and I've already shot some stunning stuff on it! I'll update my website page with this info when I get time (it's been a very busy week - everyone wants their video finished before Xmas!)
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Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production |
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