Neoscene or mpeg streamclip

Mauricio DelaOrta · January 11th, 2010, 12:11 PM

I've been using cineform since I got my JVC-HD10 camera back in 2006 (give or take), and it's always worked great for me.

Lately many tools such as mpegstreamclip/avid codec seem to be doing nearly the same thing. I've invited David, the CTO of cineform to explain whether there's a good reason to get cineform instead of the free workflow. I think there should be.

What I can say is that color correcting with First Light (included in cineform prospect) is wonderfully fast, you wouldn't believe your eyes! Nevertheless, the color correction tool still needs more features to become my only color correction tool (I still use MB looks).

Hope he can drop some lines here soon.

Best!

Mauricio

David Newman · January 11th, 2010, 01:39 PM

If you using CineForm just to file convert to AVI, and quality is not a big factor for you, then the free solutions are fine. Yet there are things happening within CineForm NeoScene and Neo HD that do benefit the Canon DSLR user. First is highlight/shadow detail clipping. Canon selected to place black and white an YUV Luma level 0 and 255, rather than the far more common 16 and 235. Many NLEs handle the extended range poorly and clip off the supers, so much so, originally the Canon cameras where thought to be very contrasty (there were many reports of this.) Later there was a patch to Quicktime that addressed this, but only for YUV to RGB conversions, which means you have to go through a YUV->RGB colorspace conversion to create the new immediate (which likely goes back YUV -- most immediates codec are YUV, otherwise there output is large.) The CineForm approach takes the 0 to 255 (8-bit) and converts it to 64 to 940 (10-bit YUV standard), which avoids colorspace conversions and the banding/contouring that can occur with direct 0-255 to 16-235 conversions, and fixes the clipping issues. I expect CineForm is the only tool using 10-bit precision at this point during the re-mastering (while the high-end DHxHD does support 10-bit, the workflows suggested will on be injecting 8-bit data.)

If you are Neo HD user, First Light will dramatically impact your workflow, allowing you to do deep precision color corrections, very quickly, you can be altering color in real-time during playback. Users generally find First Light very easy to operate, making more complex color corrections than they would with the in-built color correction tools of the NLE, without introducing banding (the biggest issue with 8-bit color corrections.)

In the latest releases of Neo http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform...-pc-betas.html -- all the Canon DSLR metadata is stored within the CineForm files, and through the First Light user interface you can non-destructively display all your camera settings within the video playback, throughout your workflow.

For those using Vegas 9 64-bit, or when VFW 64-bit tool, all the Neo product support 64-bit encoding and decoding components. Most of the free tools are still 32-bit.

There are many more reasons, particularly for Neo HD/4K/3D users, but there is value for purchase with CineForm products.

Jorge Menchu · January 12th, 2010, 07:53 PM

I am currently trying Cineform right now. On my first run through I was comparing before and after 1080p. My first analysis was that Cineform turned the clip contrasty. Then I realized it was Cineform clip that was the improved.

My clip was an interview with my father lit by a single 40 watt bulb. To see the improvements of the clip on my PC screen was a great relief.

Now - $100 or $500? Next test First Light.

Mauricio DelaOrta · January 13th, 2010, 07:16 PM

Yes, that might be the interpolation that Cineform does from 4:4:2 to 4:4:4. I noticed it too :). Color correcting the interpolated footage is very nice!

Mauricio DelaOrta · January 13th, 2010, 08:21 PM

Sorry, that was 4:2:2 from 4:2:0 :)

David Newman · January 14th, 2010, 01:18 PM

The improved dynamic range is not due to the chroma interpolation (which doesn't hurt either), it is due to the source YUV source range being non-standard with NeoScene fixes (see my previous post.)

Mauricio DelaOrta · January 14th, 2010, 09:39 PM

Thanks for pointing that out David, my tech knowledge of codecs is clearly not as good as yours :)

Mauricio

Christoph Tilley · February 5th, 2010, 03:59 PM

Here is a post on my blog on Cineform for the 7D:
Cineform for 7D | _mxr blog

Best,
Chris

January 11th, 2010, 12:11 PM	#46
Mauricio DelaOrta Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mexico City Posts: 49	I've been using cineform since I got my JVC-HD10 camera back in 2006 (give or take), and it's always worked great for me. Lately many tools such as mpegstreamclip/avid codec seem to be doing nearly the same thing. I've invited David, the CTO of cineform to explain whether there's a good reason to get cineform instead of the free workflow. I think there should be. What I can say is that color correcting with First Light (included in cineform prospect) is wonderfully fast, you wouldn't believe your eyes! Nevertheless, the color correction tool still needs more features to become my only color correction tool (I still use MB looks). Hope he can drop some lines here soon. Best! Mauricio __________________ o--------------------------o Life is short.. Live it! Mauricio

January 11th, 2010, 01:39 PM	#47
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	If you using CineForm just to file convert to AVI, and quality is not a big factor for you, then the free solutions are fine. Yet there are things happening within CineForm NeoScene and Neo HD that do benefit the Canon DSLR user. First is highlight/shadow detail clipping. Canon selected to place black and white an YUV Luma level 0 and 255, rather than the far more common 16 and 235. Many NLEs handle the extended range poorly and clip off the supers, so much so, originally the Canon cameras where thought to be very contrasty (there were many reports of this.) Later there was a patch to Quicktime that addressed this, but only for YUV to RGB conversions, which means you have to go through a YUV->RGB colorspace conversion to create the new immediate (which likely goes back YUV -- most immediates codec are YUV, otherwise there output is large.) The CineForm approach takes the 0 to 255 (8-bit) and converts it to 64 to 940 (10-bit YUV standard), which avoids colorspace conversions and the banding/contouring that can occur with direct 0-255 to 16-235 conversions, and fixes the clipping issues. I expect CineForm is the only tool using 10-bit precision at this point during the re-mastering (while the high-end DHxHD does support 10-bit, the workflows suggested will on be injecting 8-bit data.) If you are Neo HD user, First Light will dramatically impact your workflow, allowing you to do deep precision color corrections, very quickly, you can be altering color in real-time during playback. Users generally find First Light very easy to operate, making more complex color corrections than they would with the in-built color correction tools of the NLE, without introducing banding (the biggest issue with 8-bit color corrections.) In the latest releases of Neo http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform...-pc-betas.html -- all the Canon DSLR metadata is stored within the CineForm files, and through the First Light user interface you can non-destructively display all your camera settings within the video playback, throughout your workflow. For those using Vegas 9 64-bit, or when VFW 64-bit tool, all the Neo product support 64-bit encoding and decoding components. Most of the free tools are still 32-bit. There are many more reasons, particularly for Neo HD/4K/3D users, but there is value for purchase with CineForm products. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 12th, 2010, 07:53 PM	#48
Jorge Menchu New Boot Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 9	Cineform and shadows I am currently trying Cineform right now. On my first run through I was comparing before and after 1080p. My first analysis was that Cineform turned the clip contrasty. Then I realized it was Cineform clip that was the improved. My clip was an interview with my father lit by a single 40 watt bulb. To see the improvements of the clip on my PC screen was a great relief. Now - $100 or $500? Next test First Light.

January 13th, 2010, 07:16 PM	#49
Mauricio DelaOrta Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mexico City Posts: 49	Yes, that might be the interpolation that Cineform does from 4:4:2 to 4:4:4. I noticed it too :). Color correcting the interpolated footage is very nice! __________________ o--------------------------o Life is short.. Live it! Mauricio

January 13th, 2010, 08:21 PM	#50
Mauricio DelaOrta Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mexico City Posts: 49	Sorry, that was 4:2:2 from 4:2:0 :) __________________ o--------------------------o Life is short.. Live it! Mauricio

January 14th, 2010, 01:18 PM	#51
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The improved dynamic range is not due to the chroma interpolation (which doesn't hurt either), it is due to the source YUV source range being non-standard with NeoScene fixes (see my previous post.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 14th, 2010, 09:39 PM	#52
Mauricio DelaOrta Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mexico City Posts: 49	Thanks for pointing that out David, my tech knowledge of codecs is clearly not as good as yours :) Mauricio __________________ o--------------------------o Life is short.. Live it! Mauricio

February 5th, 2010, 03:59 PM	#53
Christoph Tilley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Austria Posts: 29	Cineform for Canon HDSLRs Here is a post on my blog on Cineform for the 7D: Cineform for 7D \| _mxr blog Best, Chris