Shutter & ISO Settings at DVinfo.net

Kevin Wild · October 17th, 2009, 11:18 PM

So, I usually work in a pretty standard 1/48th shutter for shooting 24p footage. The 7D doesn't have this setting, so what are most people shooting at? 1/60th? What is the downside to this versus 1/48th. With the H1, Canon seemed to think 1/48th was a big deal...now it's not?

Also, what is the highest ISO that people are shooting with? I was doing some tests today outside and started seeing grain when over 1000. Just getting used to using the ISO as a true "custom" setting, since we usually shoot on the RED and leave it at 320. I'm still getting used to the differences between these cameras.

Thanks!

Kevin

Les Nagy · October 18th, 2009, 01:40 AM

Set the shutter for 1/50th for 24P if you want close to 180° shutter.

Use the lowest ISO you can in every case, but don't avoid high ISO if you need it. Just try to keep the ISO graininess the same looking across different cameras if you are using more than one camera in a shoot. There is a plugin/program for editors to clean noise in video that does a very nice job.
Neat Video - best noise reduction for digital video
I have it for Vegas, Premiere Pro, and After Effects. It is well worth the money. The still image one is very good to.
Neat Image - best noise reduction for digital cameras and scanners

Kevin Wild · October 18th, 2009, 10:05 AM

Why not 1/60th? Again, I'm curious why Canon made such a big deal about 1/48th before...and now it doesn't matter? Odd.

Also, I'd still like to know what the higher ISO's people use. Obviously, when controlling depth of field, there are times you want to go higher ISO so you can close down the lens a bit (if no or not enough ND filtering). Just curious what the highest usable ISO is that people using without too much grain.

Thanks for the links. I'm familiar with those plugins, though haven't used them before.

Les Nagy · October 18th, 2009, 01:21 PM

1/48 is 180° shutter angle, which is/was probably the most used shutter angle in film. That doesn't ean that other shutter angles aren't usable. It's just if you are trying to emulate film as much as possible it is one of the criteria. Longer angels make movement more blurred, and shorter angles make movement more "stuttery","stacato", "frozen" etc... looking. Why Canon "only" gave us 1/50 instead of 1/48 is probably because it is such a small difference it wasn't worth the programming time for them to make it 1/48.

I gave you the best answer you can get when it comes to what ISO to use. There is no single answer. Use the ISO setting that gets the image quality you want.

Brian Luce · October 18th, 2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Nagy

I gave you the best answer you can get when it comes to what ISO to use. There is no single answer. Use the ISO setting that gets the image quality you want.

What's the best way to assess ISO affect on the image? I don't think that on board LCD is up to the task. Quite small. Will a small external LCD be necessary for extreme low light conditions?

Les Nagy · October 18th, 2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

What's the best way to assess ISO affect on the image? I don't think that on board LCD is up to the task. Quite small. Will a small external LCD be necessary for extreme low light conditions?

You shouldn't trying to decide on site. Take video at all ISOs as samples and make some mental notes on what is the highest ISO YOU want to deal with under normal circumstances. Make an assessment on what ISOs you never want to use. The ISOs in the middle are those you go to when you have no choice to get the shot.

Get familiar with your equipment before actually using it!

Brian Luce · October 18th, 2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Nagy

Get familiar with your equipment before actually using it!

Which begs the question how are you supposed to get familiar if you don't use it?

Les Nagy · October 18th, 2009, 08:50 PM

Get familiar with your equipment before actually using it! (on a real shoot)

Bruce Foreman · October 18th, 2009, 09:35 PM

Sometimes we can get so "hung up" on "the numbers" that gets in the way of opening our visual senses fully to get on with imagery.

In auto mode I think the 7D's "brain" tries to achieve something as close to a shutter speed of 1/50 as it can. I don't obsess about keeping the shutter speed perfect because an awful lot depends on ambient conditions.

While testing DOF control with the T1i (before the 7D came out) using both Nikkor lens with adapter and the EF lens using the "unlock and twist" method I achieved great shallow DOF and selective focus in a shaded but bright area of my backyard with a good looking model at an aperture of F1.8. The image looked tremendous, but there was no real motion involved and I never thought of seeing what shutter speed the camera selected. Even in shade with open areas around I think the camera set ISO 100 and probably around 1/2000 shutter. Had there been real motion I think I would have seen some "staccato" effect but with the only motion being the model sweeping her hair back (slowly) and the breeze moving some leaves. No problem.

On the first project with my 7D I tried to go with F2.8 (max aperture on the 24mm) for a few scenes, had ISO set on 100 and could not get a shutter speed slower than 1/4000 in the open area we had to shoot in. Moving into some mesquite we got away from some of the direct sun and I was able to work at F5.6 and F8, the shutter was down around 1/125. Only motion that tried to "strobe" was a fast blow from one actor and that wasn't too bad.

What's the answer? A set of ND filters and mine (.6 and .9) are coming in about 4 days from B&H.

I work video exposure with the 7D this way. Set the aperture and shutter desired with the dial on top set in Manual mode. I set the ISO to AUTO. Then when you switch to video mode you can press the shutter release lightly and see your iris and shutter settings confirmed and the AUTO for ISO reading changes to display what the camera needs to set it to. If at that point you press the ISO button you can manually set the ISO to that value or to any other value that gives you the exposure look you want on the LCD. At that point your exposure is "locked" and does not change as you pan into different lit field of view (which is the way I want it).

You can make better exposure judgements on the LCD if you use some kind of viewfinder loupe that excludes ambient light. I usually have the CAVISION viewfinder setup on the camera, the eyepiece is 6X magnification and that works for me. I also use the Hoodloupe 3.0 and can fasten that in place with elastic bands if needed. It provides a 1:1 view with no magnification but does an excellent job of blocking out light.

Being aware of what the shutter speed effect may be and having the tools on hand (ND filters) to gain the control you need will help. But I'm not going to obsess about getting the perfect cinematic shutter speed, the 7D gets much closer to a cinematic look than our small sensor video cameras do.

Whew! Long post.

Jaser Stockert · October 19th, 2009, 09:50 AM

Bruce, do you find the 6x magnicfication of the Cavision, a little to much or is it a matter of getting adjusted to it? i'm thinking about this vs. the z-finder. thanks.

Bruce Foreman · October 21st, 2009, 12:53 PM

Jaser,

I don't know if I "found" it just right or if I adapted to it quickly.

It works...For me.

The magnification of 6x causes no problems for me and i actually appreciate being able to see "focus" that much easier. It does magnify pixels a bit, but again that doesn't bother me, the screen on both the Canon T1i and the 7D is a finer "grained" LCD than I've had yet so I just use it and go to work.

One additional factor is the size of the eyepiece that makes it really easy to "see" into.

I like it.

October 17th, 2009, 11:18 PM	#1
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	Shutter & ISO Settings So, I usually work in a pretty standard 1/48th shutter for shooting 24p footage. The 7D doesn't have this setting, so what are most people shooting at? 1/60th? What is the downside to this versus 1/48th. With the H1, Canon seemed to think 1/48th was a big deal...now it's not? Also, what is the highest ISO that people are shooting with? I was doing some tests today outside and started seeing grain when over 1000. Just getting used to using the ISO as a true "custom" setting, since we usually shoot on the RED and leave it at 320. I'm still getting used to the differences between these cameras. Thanks! Kevin

October 18th, 2009, 01:40 AM	#2
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	Set the shutter for 1/50th for 24P if you want close to 180° shutter. Use the lowest ISO you can in every case, but don't avoid high ISO if you need it. Just try to keep the ISO graininess the same looking across different cameras if you are using more than one camera in a shoot. There is a plugin/program for editors to clean noise in video that does a very nice job. Neat Video - best noise reduction for digital video I have it for Vegas, Premiere Pro, and After Effects. It is well worth the money. The still image one is very good to. Neat Image - best noise reduction for digital cameras and scanners

October 18th, 2009, 10:05 AM	#3
Kevin Wild Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 540	Why not 1/60th? Again, I'm curious why Canon made such a big deal about 1/48th before...and now it doesn't matter? Odd. Also, I'd still like to know what the higher ISO's people use. Obviously, when controlling depth of field, there are times you want to go higher ISO so you can close down the lens a bit (if no or not enough ND filtering). Just curious what the highest usable ISO is that people using without too much grain. Thanks for the links. I'm familiar with those plugins, though haven't used them before.

October 18th, 2009, 01:21 PM	#4
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	1/48 is 180° shutter angle, which is/was probably the most used shutter angle in film. That doesn't ean that other shutter angles aren't usable. It's just if you are trying to emulate film as much as possible it is one of the criteria. Longer angels make movement more blurred, and shorter angles make movement more "stuttery","stacato", "frozen" etc... looking. Why Canon "only" gave us 1/50 instead of 1/48 is probably because it is such a small difference it wasn't worth the programming time for them to make it 1/48. I gave you the best answer you can get when it comes to what ISO to use. There is no single answer. Use the ISO setting that gets the image quality you want.

October 18th, 2009, 08:50 PM	#8
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	Get familiar with your equipment before actually using it! (on a real shoot)

October 18th, 2009, 09:35 PM	#9
Bruce Foreman Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Angelo Texas Posts: 1,518	Sometimes we can get so "hung up" on "the numbers" that gets in the way of opening our visual senses fully to get on with imagery. In auto mode I think the 7D's "brain" tries to achieve something as close to a shutter speed of 1/50 as it can. I don't obsess about keeping the shutter speed perfect because an awful lot depends on ambient conditions. While testing DOF control with the T1i (before the 7D came out) using both Nikkor lens with adapter and the EF lens using the "unlock and twist" method I achieved great shallow DOF and selective focus in a shaded but bright area of my backyard with a good looking model at an aperture of F1.8. The image looked tremendous, but there was no real motion involved and I never thought of seeing what shutter speed the camera selected. Even in shade with open areas around I think the camera set ISO 100 and probably around 1/2000 shutter. Had there been real motion I think I would have seen some "staccato" effect but with the only motion being the model sweeping her hair back (slowly) and the breeze moving some leaves. No problem. On the first project with my 7D I tried to go with F2.8 (max aperture on the 24mm) for a few scenes, had ISO set on 100 and could not get a shutter speed slower than 1/4000 in the open area we had to shoot in. Moving into some mesquite we got away from some of the direct sun and I was able to work at F5.6 and F8, the shutter was down around 1/125. Only motion that tried to "strobe" was a fast blow from one actor and that wasn't too bad. What's the answer? A set of ND filters and mine (.6 and .9) are coming in about 4 days from B&H. I work video exposure with the 7D this way. Set the aperture and shutter desired with the dial on top set in Manual mode. I set the ISO to AUTO. Then when you switch to video mode you can press the shutter release lightly and see your iris and shutter settings confirmed and the AUTO for ISO reading changes to display what the camera needs to set it to. If at that point you press the ISO button you can manually set the ISO to that value or to any other value that gives you the exposure look you want on the LCD. At that point your exposure is "locked" and does not change as you pan into different lit field of view (which is the way I want it). You can make better exposure judgements on the LCD if you use some kind of viewfinder loupe that excludes ambient light. I usually have the CAVISION viewfinder setup on the camera, the eyepiece is 6X magnification and that works for me. I also use the Hoodloupe 3.0 and can fasten that in place with elastic bands if needed. It provides a 1:1 view with no magnification but does an excellent job of blocking out light. Being aware of what the shutter speed effect may be and having the tools on hand (ND filters) to gain the control you need will help. But I'm not going to obsess about getting the perfect cinematic shutter speed, the 7D gets much closer to a cinematic look than our small sensor video cameras do. Whew! Long post.

October 19th, 2009, 09:50 AM	#10
Jaser Stockert Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 147	Bruce, do you find the 6x magnicfication of the Cavision, a little to much or is it a matter of getting adjusted to it? i'm thinking about this vs. the z-finder. thanks.

October 21st, 2009, 12:53 PM	#11
Bruce Foreman Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Angelo Texas Posts: 1,518	Jaser, I don't know if I "found" it just right or if I adapted to it quickly. It works...For me. The magnification of 6x causes no problems for me and i actually appreciate being able to see "focus" that much easier. It does magnify pixels a bit, but again that doesn't bother me, the screen on both the Canon T1i and the 7D is a finer "grained" LCD than I've had yet so I just use it and go to work. One additional factor is the size of the eyepiece that makes it really easy to "see" into. I like it.