This is why we are excited

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

don't know why everything is embracing the VDSLR form factor as if it's the way going forward.

They're embracing it because it's available right now, that's all.

[Yang Wen]

I caveated it by only talking about the ones who proclaim VDSLR is the future of filmmaking. That makes no sense to me.

[Chris Hurd]

It's the immediate future of filmmaking.

A border-line oxymoron, I know.

[Bill Pryor]

Yep. Available now is a good thing if it's something you need now. But it doesn't matter if Canon came out with an XH A1-II that has a full size chip and interchangeable lenses and offered a 12mm-100mm f1.8 zoom and it sold for $4,000 and had wifi and an iPhone built into the side...there would still be another new camera on the horizon that would come out the day after you placed your order, or if you're lucky the day after you made your final payment on what you bought.

For me a still camera that shoots good video might be a nice backup for my XH A1. I don't know if the footage is going to look that much better. What I'd really like to see is, after the camera is in the hands of some real video guys, not still photographers, some real world clips posted in full size that I could download and drop into a timeline and compare with other footage. If the footage is comparable or better, then I could probably talk myself into this camera.

[Chris Barcellos]

We are taught to be wary of things that don't seem right. In the case of the 7D, I am wary because it is selling for $1K less than the 5D. With its sensor size, its new frame rates, and its reported higher bit rate , there are bound to be differences. With the lower price, that leads me to extrapolate that something will have to give somewhere. Seems to me there was a lot of early praise for the Panny, but I haven't heard a lot of great things lately about it. But I haven't follow it closely.

I will be tickled if the 7D lives up to the hype. But I have only seen one purported 7 second raw ciip from the camera, and it was jelloish and ugly, and exhibited a lot of moire effect. So it is best that we reserve until this thing is put through its paces.

[Mike Demmers]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

They're embracing it because it's available right now, that's all.

Yes. And I have noticed the common development pattern they use goes something like this:

They put a test feature in one mid range camera.

If it goes, the next step is not to put it into the high end cameras, but instead into the consumer cameras (which causes some complaints from the high end users 'why don't we get this?')

Later it appears, much refined, in the higher end cameras. They have used all the feedback they got from having the feature out to a mass market to fine tune the design before they incorprate the feature into the high end cameras - that tend to have very demanding users.

It's a very sensible way to do this.

The VDSLR form factor is not the future. It's just the test bed.

-MD

[Jon Fairhurst]

But 24p isn't rocket science. All they need to do is insert a delay between the completion of one scan and the start of the next. We will get the same quality we get today, but with the desired frame rate. The jello will be the same (25ms latency, top to bottom), so when you pan at a given rate the buildings will tilt at the same angle as today.

Of course, if Canon wants to take their time and give us better compression, 720p60, 48 kHz audio and other goodies, I'll appreciate and use them. But just give me 24p with the current quality level, and I'll be quite pleased. (And if the HDMI stayed at HD for critical live focusing, that would rock too. There are no workarounds for trying to focus at HD levels with an SD monitor. But I'd understand if that feature were in the next gen.)

[Yang Wen]

Originally Posted by Mike Demmers

The VDSLR form factor is not the future. It's just the test bed.-MD

Correction - VDSLR is the future. However, the form factor of large sensor video cameras for us serious videographers/filmmakers will not be in the form factor of VDSLR.

In the future, the image sensor part of the system will not vary much from still to motion applications. The only thing that will vary is the form factor appropriate for the intended application

[Daniel Browning]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

But 24p isn't rocket science.

Jon, that's not being fair to Canon. I think you may be looking at how quickly Tramm has built up the Magic Lantern firmware with dozens of valuable features. But it's no wonder he can work so quickly, just look at all of the factors that are in his favor:

• Little or no money.
• Whatever spare time that can be found.
• He has absolutely no Canon source code.
• He has no documentation of the hardware or software.
• He has to reverse engineer everything from scratch.

With those kinds of advantages over Canon, it's no wonder he can fix a host of bugs and add new features in a single day's work, or build out advanced new features in less than a week.

Canon, in contrast, has all sorts of difficulties and barriers working against them:

• Billions of dollars.
• Dozens of full time paid software engineers.
• Full access to all source code, SCM, and project tools.
• Full documentation of all hardware/software.
• Direct access to the engineers who designed the hardware.

With those kinds of disadvantages it's no wonder it took Canon half a year just to add Manual Control. Imagine how much slower Tramm would be if he had full documentation. Or (heaven forbid), the actual source code. Or was paid to work on it full time. His progress would grind to a halt! The only reason he has been so quick until now is because he had to work blindfolded and reverse engineer everything from scratch.

[Yang Wen]

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Jon, that's not being fair to Canon. I think you may be looking at how quickly Tramm has built up the Magic Lantern firmware with dozens of valuable features. But it's no wonder he can work so quickly, just look at all of the factors that are in his favor:

• Little or no money.
• Whatever spare time that can be found.
• He has absolutely no Canon source code.
• He has no documentation of the hardware or software.
• He has to reverse engineer everything from scratch.

That logic doesn't make sense. Yes, Tramm's work is incredible and it is more than anything, indicative of his brilliance with reverse engineering and understanding the firmware code. Regarding the 24P feature, no one outside Canon knows for sure what technical hurdles exist for that to be implemented. Just because Tramm was able to enable so many other features doesn't mean given enough knowledge of the firmware or ample resources, 24P can be implemented via software.

[Mike Demmers]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Correction - VDSLR is the future. However, the form factor of large sensor video cameras for us serious videographers/filmmakers will not be in the form factor of VDSLR.

That is what I meant, even if not so clearly stated. ;-)

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

In the future, the image sensor part of the system will not vary much from still to motion applications. The only thing that will vary is the form factor appropriate for the intended application

And I suspect that form factor will converge a bit more between still cameras and video cameras. I don't know what the final result will be, but the 35 mm camera shape came as a very efficient way to cram a lens mount, two film spools, a viewfinder etc into a space, and the common sort of 'long rectangular box' shape of most video cameras was needed because of long vidicon tubes and complex electronics.

Neither shape makes much sense for a modern computer and electronic sensor, and in fact increases manufacturing costs quite a bit. Both were needed so that - with this huge change to electronic imaging - the manufacturers could put something in the hands of a photographer where they could feel some sense of familiarity - 'Looks like a camera, feels like a camera, works like a camera, yes, maybe I can work with this'.

It's interesting watching the shapes slowly evolve into something more suitable.

For professionals, I just hope that shape includes space for decent sized XLRs and audio level controls. ;-)

-Mike

[Daniel Browning]

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

That logic doesn't make sense. Yes, Tramm's work is incredible and it is more than anything, indicative of his brilliance with reverse engineering and understanding the firmware code. Regarding the 24P feature, no one outside Canon knows for sure what technical hurdles exist for that to be implemented. Just because Tramm was able to enable so many other features doesn't mean given enough knowledge of the firmware or ample resources, 24P can be implemented via software.

You may very well be right. Hyperbole of that magnitude applies better to features that are guaranteed to be software-only, such as Auto ISO, focus stacking, etc.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Jon, that's not being fair to Canon...

Awesome. :)

[Robert Lane]

The reason this is exciting for many filmmakers is for the exact reason this custom rig was created: for the images it can produce.

How many times have you seen images that were obviously from using a long telephoto and created that wonderful "compression" effect in-camera between foreground and background? Lot's. And typically the only way you could do this is on a film-rig that can accept film lenses.

OR, you could create a hybrid such as this. A few years ago I had a Hollywood master-lens setup guru create a special mount for me so I could use the P+S Pro/Mini-35 with my HVX200 and later HPX500 and my 600mm F/4 Nikkor (see pic used for sizing purposes). It was a monster rig that required a "real" film-head on the massive tripod to hold it all, but it worked and I got the shots I need to fulfill the creative vision.

To me this rig isn't about just grabbing the subject that is far off in the distance, but also being able to create that in-camera compression, something you can't do well in post without it looking fake.

Personally the ability to use long lenses - especially those in the EOS "L" lineup such as the 200mm f/2, 400mm f/4 and if you've got the balls to rent one the 1200mm f/5.6 can produce images that are just... stunning.

This Panavision tele-zoom to a 7D? As the Brits say: Brilliant!

[Bill Pryor]

Daniel, your sense of irony is even better honed than mine. I stand in awe.